[Savage Species]Half-ogre overpowered??

[Baron Von StarBlade]

Compare a half-ogre/Fighter4 to a human/Fighter6. I dare you. I double-dare you . I bet that they're damn close to even . . .

Actually the Human Fighter would decimate the 1/2 Ogre, since the Fighter gets 2 attacks to the 1/2 Ogre's single attack.

Also as others have stated Large sized equipment would cost alot more so the Human Fighter would have much better equipment.

 

[Forrester]

But even if the 1/2 ogre is a match for fighter, he should get a slight reduction in the ECL because he can't play much else. Want to compare human Sorcerer 3 to Half ogre Sor 1? Human cleric 3 to half ogre Clr 1? Rogue? Bard?

It's only close for a melee fighter. For all else it's abysmal.

PS

No , sherlock. Of course you have to balance the races based on what they do best. It even says in Savage Species (though it shouldn't need to) that if someone makes a non max-min suggestion (like an Ettin Wizard) that you fool with the level adjustment.

 

[Forrester]

Okay, let's see what we have here:

"Doofus" -- Human Fgtr 6: AC 23(26), 49hp
str:16
dex:14
con:14
int:12
wis:10
chr:8

Key feats:
weapon focus
power attack
cleave
Weapon Specialization

BAB 6/1
Has Longsword +1, Full Plate +2, Large Shield +1

+11/+6 overall to hit.
1d8+6 damage (average 10hp/hit)

He could give up his shield and take a greatsword:
2d6+7 (average 14hp/hit)

-------
"Thumpy" -- 1/2 Ogre Fgtr 4: AC 26(29), 38hp.
Str 22
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 10
Chr 6

Key feats:
weapon focus
power attack
cleave
Weapon Specialization

BAB 4
Has Greatsword +1, Full Plate +2, Large Shield +1

+11 overall to hit.
2d6+8 damage (average 15hp/hit)

He could give up his shield and take a HUGE greatsword:
2d8+11 (average 20hp/hit)
-----
I like the Ogre without the shield, myself. So let's pit Longsword Doofus against Huge Greatsword Thumpy.

They have the same attack bonus, AND the same armor class. How convenient! They hit each other on 12s. Doofus hits Thumpy in a full-round attack with his second hit on a 17. But for Easy Math purposes, let's have both of them power-attacking for one point, so they hit on 11s, and Doofus hits on a 16.

AND Let's give Doofus the benefit of the doubt -- he starts from within 5' of Thumpy (thus not having to worry about Thumpy's cool 10' reach).

Doofus will hit on his first attack 50% of the time and with his second attack 25% of the time. He'll do an average of 8hp/round, about.

Thumpy will hit on his first attack 50% of the time. He'll do an average of 10hp/round, around.

Doofus will kill Thumpy in five rounds. Thumpy will kill Doofus in five rounds.

Look! Balance!

I will also point out:

1) Thumpy has 10' reach. Sweet!
2) Thumpy is immune to Hold Person, Charm Person, Sleep, and all those other spells that affect short people. Sweet!
3) These two things certainly balance out the fact that he's got fewer skill points and won't ever get Expertise or Spring Attack. After all, that's not what he's made for.

To balance them even more exactly, I would give Thumpy a 40' move (like all giants are supposed to have). But let's face it -- these two are really close. Yes, the human has much more flexibility. Duh. But if you want to make a Tank, the half-ogre with level adjustment +2 seems to be about even with the human Tank. At level adjustment +1, he'd wipe the floor with Doofus.

 

[Storminator]

Look! Balance!

I will also point out:

1) Thumpy has 10' reach. Sweet!
2) Thumpy is immune to Hold Person, Charm Person, Sleep, and all those other spells that affect short people. Sweet!
3) These two things certainly balance out the fact that he's got fewer skill points and won't ever get Expertise or Spring Attack. After all, that's not what he's made for.

To balance them even more exactly, I would give Thumpy a 40' move (like all giants are supposed to have). But let's face it -- these two are really close. Yes, the human has much more flexibility. Duh. But if you want to make a Tank, the half-ogre with level adjustment +2 seems to be about even with the human Tank. At level adjustment +1, he'd wipe the floor with Doofus.

Except that you stole 4 feats and 2K in gp from the fighter. Other than that, yeah, they're balanced. Let's do it simply: Give the fighter Dodge and Mobility (helps nerf that reach), two Toughness feats, and a Ring of Protection +1. Now Doofus kills Thumpy in 5 rounds, and Thumpy kills Doofus in 6.

Or maybe actually play one and see how it works out.

PS

 

[Forrester]

That's only three feats, right? One for 6th level, one for being human, one fighter feat. And the 2k in gold -- well, it should go without saying that as these guys rise in level, that 2k discrepancy (bcs of having more expensive armor) is going to get less and less important.

And there's just something tasty about doing 20hp/slice, even at low level. Mmmmm .

Like I said, giving the half-ogre a 40' move probably evens them out almost perfectly.

 

[Storminator]

That's only three feats, right? One for 6th level, one for being human, one fighter feat. And the 2k in gold -- well, it should go without saying that as these guys rise in level, that 2k discrepancy (bcs of having more expensive armor) is going to get less and less important.

And there's just something tasty about doing 20hp/slice, even at low level. Mmmmm .

Like I said, giving the half-ogre a 40' move probably evens them out almost perfectly.

The four feats came from: level 6 human fighter ==8 feats, you had 4 listed. The 1/2 ogre would have one more as well.

The 2k difference lessens true, but there are other logistics the 1/2 ogre will always have to overcome. He'll never ride a horse, he won't fit in a canoe, he'll never be teleported by the wizard, etc. It'd take a 32nd level wizard to teleport him! Yow. I have a near-epic level PARTY that doesn't weigh as much as him...

PS

 

[mmu1]

I think one issue everyone is missing in these write-ups is what happens when you actually build a fighter and a half-ogre one level lower without going crazy and trying to give the half-ogre 22 or 24 strength...

Anyone want to do a comparison of what's going to happen if you use point-buy, and then make a human fighter with 18 Str and 16 Con and a half-ogre with 18 Str and 16 Con?

The half-ogre saves 16 points on Str and Con compared to the human fighter... Which means that, as long as both characters aren't going for higher scores in Dex, Int and Cha than 12, he can spend 6 of those "free" points to make those stats as high as the Human's, and have 10 points left over to do as he wishes... Hell, he can afford to make himself smarter and more charismatic than the human.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

The four feats came from: level 6 human fighter ==8 feats, you had 4 listed. The 1/2 ogre would have one more as well.

The 2k difference lessens true, but there are other logistics the 1/2 ogre will always have to overcome. He'll never ride a horse, he won't fit in a canoe, he'll never be teleported by the wizard, etc. It'd take a 32nd level wizard to teleport him! Yow. I have a near-epic level PARTY that doesn't weigh as much as him...

PS

Yeah but that size has advantages as well.

The half ogre could carry the whole party up a rope probably.

"I'm just going to have to get myself a new giant."

He can reach higher ledges, he's more difficult to grapple, bull rush, disarm etc. If he gets a freindly polymorph one size category higher is huge not large and on and on, for every you can' fit in the cannoe there is a hah I'm large here's a situation where it helps.

 

[Hardhead]

Thumpy will hit on his first attack 50% of the time. He'll do an average of 10hp/round, around.

Thumpy will hit on his first attack 50% of the time. He'll do an average of 10hp/round, around.

Doofus will kill Thumpy in five rounds. Thumpy will kill Doofus in five rounds.

Look! Balance!

Also, look at the fact that you're comparing an ECL 6 human (human, six fighter levels) to an ECL 5 Ogre (ECL +1, four level in fighter).

So, in other words, it shows that H/Ogs would be balanced if their ECL was one higher!

I will also point out:

1) Thumpy has 10' reach. Sweet!
2) Thumpy is immune to Hold Person, Charm Person, Sleep, and all those other spells that affect short people. Sweet!
3) These two things certainly balance out the fact that he's got fewer skill points and won't ever get Expertise or Spring Attack. After all, that's not what he's made for.

He can easily pick them up if he buys Gloves of Dex +2.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I think one issue everyone is missing in these write-ups is what happens when you actually build a fighter and a half-ogre one level lower without going crazy and trying to give the half-ogre 22 or 24 strength...

Anyone want to do a comparison of what's going to happen if you use point-buy, and then make a human fighter with 18 Str and 16 Con and a half-ogre with 18 Str and 16 Con?

The half-ogre saves 16 points on Str and Con compared to the human fighter... Which means that, as long as both characters aren't going for higher scores in Dex, Int and Cha than 12, he can spend 6 of those "free" points to make those stats as high as the Human's, and have 10 points left over to do as he wishes... Hell, he can afford to make himself smarter and more charismatic than the human.

Point buy as in the rules gives a small edge to the normal non-human races with the exotic ones it just can get ugly for those worried about min/maxing.