[Savage Species]Half-ogre overpowered??

[Pax]

Disadvantages:
-2 dex = -1 ac, -1 to hit with missle weapons, -1 dex-related skills (eg. move silently, ride)

Also -1 initiative.

Like I said in a previous thread: compared to the other +1 ECL races, they have:
*no skill bonuses (in fact, as you can see have a penalty to pretty much most skills)
*arn't native outsiders (and therefor arn't immune to say, charm person)

Actually, their type is "Giant", so they -aren't- subject to Charm Person and similar spells, AFAIK.

However, because they're giants ... dwarves get some bonusses aginst them ... heh.

 

[green slime]

The reason I mentioned spring attack, is that it isn't used to dodge in and about vs reach creatures, it is used to get up close to creatures with reach and clobber them to a pulp, at least IMC. Reach is good, it just isn't the total domination factor some people seem to accredit it to.

That said, I think I'll wait to read the book before I decide one way or the other.

 

[Darklone]

The reason I mentioned spring attack, is that it isn't used to dodge in and about vs reach creatures, it is used to get up close to creatures with reach and clobber them to a pulp, at least IMC. Reach is good, it just isn't the total domination factor some people seem to accredit it to.

Yeah, but the problem persists, that most guys who have Spring Attack and Whirlwind tend to wear heavy armour and thus cannot use Spring Attack...

 

[Spatula]

Versatility
drow- there is virtually no class that a drow would not do well in
half-ogre- fighter and barbarian are the only real choices that the half-ogres stat minuses would not be a detriment.
drow a clear winner her

Some of your other "clear winners" aren't so clear to me, but this is simply wrong. Leaving aside the question of the drow's versatility, the half-ogre would make a GREAT combat cleric (large physical bonuses, no penalty to wisdom), a very nice ranger (can't sneak, at least not well, but has large physical bonuses, no penalty to wisdom, and natural armor makes up for light armor semi-restriction, hmmm dual-wielding a greatsword and a bastard sword...), a good paladin (aforementioned bonuses slightly offset by charisma penalty; still, the half-ogre is better off than dwarven or half-orc paladins who have lesser physical bonuses but the same charisma penalty), plus the obvious GREAT fighter or barbarian.

So half-ogres are plenty versatile. However, that does not matter as far as Savage Species is concerned. The level adjustment should be based off of the race's strengths, and in this case that means fighter or barbarian. The half-ogre as a +1 level adjustment race fails the book's own acid test. The half-ogre looks much more reasonable as a +2 race when you perform SS's acid test. As a +2 race, the half-ogre is still better in melee and pure strength, but lags behind normal races in HD and ranged attacks. Not all that dissimilar to what you get with an ogre (minus the ogre's racial HD).

 

[Spatula]

The reason I mentioned spring attack, is that it isn't used to dodge in and about vs reach creatures, it is used to get up close to creatures with reach and clobber them to a pulp, at least IMC. Reach is good, it just isn't the total domination factor some people seem to accredit it to.

That said, I think I'll wait to read the book before I decide one way or the other.

Spring Attack (and Tumble) are good foils to large creatures, as are reach weapons, ranged attacks, etc. But, not every character has those things, and reach is very nice in those cases. It's not just about getting AoOs on approaching meleers, but also allows the half-ogre to move next to archers and spellcasters and deny them the old 5' step back and shoot (or cast). It also allows the half-ogre to avoid movement AoOs himself against opponents with reach (either other Large creatures or smaller creatures with reach weapons), or avoid AoOs from actions (casting a spell, drinking a potion) against creatures without reach.

But the 10' reach is tied to the half-ogres Large size, which allows for better weapons and hefty bonuses to grapples, trips, and (indirectly) disarms and sunders. The size, combined with the reach, combined with the half-ogre's strength bonus, and you have a character that is *very* effective in the various melee maneuvers (plus the regular melee attacks of course).

Consider that a half-ogre can stand 10' away from a human and make disarm and sunder attacks without suffering AoOs, without having the proper feats, because the human doesn't threaten the half-ogre (unless the human has a reach weapon). And because the half-ogre is using Large or Huge weapons, he is a sundering machine (run the numbers, it's sick how good they can get at it) and gets +4 or +8 to disarm attempts. I'll leave grapples and trips as an exercise for the reader...

 

[Hypersmurf]

There's some similar discussion going on in the Large Size feat thread...

-Hyp.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

The reason I mentioned spring attack, is that it isn't used to dodge in and about vs reach creatures, it is used to get up close to creatures with reach and clobber them to a pulp, at least IMC. Reach is good, it just isn't the total domination factor some people seem to accredit it to.

That said, I think I'll wait to read the book before I decide one way or the other.

yeah I recognized that. It gets you in with no AoO, but that's all it does. No hit and fade tactics etc. So yeah after spending 3 feats someone can aovid a single AoO against the h-ogre. Considering the damage or special maneuvers that can be done that is great, but I'm not sure it really devalues reach except in the gladitorial fight set ups.

 

[Knight of Neraka]

Well according to WotC's own guidelines for determining level adjustment the Half-Ogre should be at least a +2.

1) Page 12 says "Reach: Beyond 5', every additional 5' of reach is worth an additional +1 level adjustment". Under the Half-Ogre descriptor (page 218) the Half-Ogre has a 10' reach.

2) Page 11 says "Natural Armor Bonus: A natural armor bonus is worth at least a +1 level adjustment, plus an additional +1 for every 5 points of natural armor bonus beyond the first 5". Being that the Half-Ogre receives a +4 this counts for another +1 to his level adjustment.

3) Page 13 shows a chart with the unbalanced ability score line, which is almost equally proportionate to the Half-Ogre racial bonuses. So this is another +1 to level adjustment.

So this brings us up to a +3 LA by their own guidelines.
I'm sure no one realy cares, but hey I have two weeks of leave from my job and have been reading this book over and over.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

Well according to WotC's own guidelines for determining level adjustment the Half-Ogre should be at least a +2.

1) Page 12 says "Reach: Beyond 5', every additional 5' of reach is worth an additional +1 level adjustment". Under the Half-Ogre descriptor (page 218) the Half-Ogre has a 10' reach.

2) Page 11 says "Natural Armor Bonus: A natural armor bonus is worth at least a +1 level adjustment, plus an additional +1 for every 5 points of natural armor bonus beyond the first 5". Being that the Half-Ogre receives a +4 this counts for another +1 to his level adjustment.

3) Page 13 shows a chart with the unbalanced ability score line, which is almost equally proportionate to the Half-Ogre racial bonuses. So this is another +1 to level adjustment.

So this brings us up to a +3 LA by their own guidelines.
I'm sure no one realy cares, but hey I have two weeks of leave from my job and have been reading this book over and over.

If you correctly use the ECL system in SS you need to now 'look it over'. The LA system consistantly gives a high result which you should cut down if you think it merits it. All the examples I remember had them pushing the ECL down and not up. I think that the system reads high is a intentional design feature. Ignoring it won't give you proper results.

I'm still not sold on the Half-Orge being +1 but it sure it more of a +1 than the freakin feral template. OMG. That template is just wrong.

 

[Pax]

Feral should really be a variable cost, depending on the base HD of the creature to which it is applied.

Applied to a 1HD race, for example, it's not -that- bad (Fast Healing 2, Improved Grab, and some nice attribute modifiers if you don't mind being dumber than the average ROCK). And Improved Grab only works on things one or more sizes smaller than you ...

As for the Half-Ogre: it's either a very powerful +1, or, a fairly weak +2. IMO anyway.