[Savage Species]Half-ogre overpowered??

[Spatula]

Acid Test
I'll compare the half-ogre to the half-orc, since they're similar in racial benefits (strong, dumb, can see in the dark).

1st lvl half-ogre fighter vs half-orc 4th lvl fighter

Base stats are 10. Half-ogre has Weapon Focus and 1 other feat. Half-orc has Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and 2 other feats.
HP: 11 vs 23
AC: half-ogre AC will be 2 pts higher
Attack (melee): +5 vs +6
Damage (melee): 2d6+3 (avg 10) vs 1d10+3 (avg 8.5)
Attack (range): +0 vs +4
Damage (range): 2d6 (avg 7) vs 1d8 (avg 4.5)
Saves: +3/-1/+0 vs +4/+1/+1
Other: 10 ft reach, immunity to some enchantments vs 3 feats, ability increase, +1 initiative
A +3 level adjustment is too much. The half-ogre is very deficient in HP and loses out in attack bonuses. Its damage is impressive and its natural reach improves its melee capabilities beyond what the numbers indicate, but those HP...

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1st lvl half-ogre fighter vs half-orc 3rd lvl fighter

Half-ogre has Weapon Focus and 1 other feat. Half-orc has Weapon Focus, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and 2 other feats.
HP: 11 vs 19
AC: half-ogre AC will be 2 pts higher
Attack (melee): +5 vs +5
Damage (melee): 2d6+3 (avg 10) vs 1d10+1 (avg 6.5)
Attack (range): +0 vs +3
Damage (range): 2d6 (avg 7) vs 1d8 (avg 4.5)
Saves: +3/-1/+0 vs +3/+1/+1
Other: 10 ft reach, immunity to some enchantments vs 2 feats, +1 initiative
A +2 level adjustment looks good. The half-ogre is less deficient in HP, and the gap will narrow with time because of the CON bonus. Its damage is impressive, and its natural reach improves its melee capabilities beyond what the numbers indicate.

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1st lvl half-ogre fighter vs half-orc 2nd lvl fighter

Half-ogre has Weapon Focus and 1 other feat. Half-orc has Weapon Focus, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and 1 other feat.
HP: 11 vs 14
AC: half-ogre AC will be 2 pts higher
Attack (melee): +5 vs +4
Damage (melee): 2d6+3 (avg 10) vs 1d10+1 (avg 6.5)
Attack (range): +0 vs +2
Damage (range): 2d6 (avg 7) vs 1d8 (avg 4.5)
Saves: +3/-1/+0 vs +3/+0/+0
Other: 10 ft reach, immunity to some enchantments vs 1 feat, +1 initiative
Too strong at +1 level adjustment. HP are on par. Saves are on par. The half-ogre hits more often in melee, does 50% more damage than the half-orc, and has reach. The half-ogre doesn't hit as well with ranged attacks but again does 50% more damage than the half-orc. I'd say all that is worth more than a single feat.

 

[Pax]

Wrong acid test. that's NOT how the book does it.

Compare to a default member of the class the Half-Ogre is best suited for (which would be Fighter or Barbarian).

You don't compare race to race. You compare "with this race" to "without this race". And you compare at the EXACT SAME ECL.

Compare a Half-Ogre Barbarian(1) to a Barbarian(2):

Half Ogre Barbarian(1) has size, reach, and strength; the strength gives him +4 to hit (net), and +3 damage. The +4 natural armor makes him less likely to hit. One feat is known.

The core Barbarian(2) has an extra d12 HD, and is at +2 to hit (net), +0 damage. He also has Uncanny Dodge, retainign hsi DEX bonus to AC. Also, one feat.

IMO, the two are roughly balanced -- do you want +2 to hit, +3 damage, reach, and natural AC ... or do you want the extra HD(potentially doubling HP) and uncanny dodge? Not to mention, being closer to picking up a new feat. Granted, thigns lean marginally in favor of the Half-Ogre, but I've already said, I consider it a "strong +1"

However, compare the Half-Ogre Barbarian(1) to a stock Barbarian(3)

Now the barbarian is only -1 to hit compared to the half-ogre, he has a net of +1 across the board to saves, he has two feats (to the half-ogre's one), and THREE hit dice. Clearly, the Barbarian(3) wins out -- those two extra HD are a significant advantage. Thus, the Half-Ogre shouldn't be +2 ECL.

 

[Hardhead]

If you go by Savage Species, they have a LA of +3

(+1 for Natural Amor, +1 for stat bonuses being better than penalities, +1 for 10' reach).

So, why didn't Savage Species follow it's own rules for assigning the H/Ogre's LA?

 

[Hypersmurf]

However, compare the Half-Ogre Barbarian(1) to a stock Barbarian(3)

How does that continue to hold up at higher levels, though?

I don't have Savage Species, so they may have explained this... but with a Half-Ogre Barbarian(6) vs the Barbarian(8), 8d12 hit dice vs 6d12 (with higher Con) is a far smaller margin of superiority...

... and the Half-Ogre still has Reach.

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

How does that continue to hold up at higher levels, though?

I don't have Savage Species, so they may have explained this... but with a Half-Ogre Barbarian(6) vs the Barbarian(8), 8d12 hit dice vs 6d12 (with higher Con) is a far smaller margin of superiority...

... and the Half-Ogre still has Reach.

-Hyp.

Higher levels are irrelevant. Savage Species says -- in as many words -- that balancing all creatures, and all races, for all clases, at all possible levels, is an impossible task.

So they don't even try. For anything, let alone the Half-Ogre.

What they do is, they see how balanced somethign is ath the first moment you can use it, compared to what you could have had if you'd played a standard race.

And note: I didn't pick the best Barbarian PHB race (Half-Orc), which gets +1 to hit and damage from Strength, rendering the Barbarian(3) TIED for attack and only 2 points behind in dmage. I didn't use ANY PHB race, in fact. 8) Which only adds to the Barbarian(3) even further.

As for thos ehigher levels, though -- Half-Ogre Barbarian(7) versus Brbarian(8), sure, the one HD isn't much of a difference. But the non-Halfogre has gotten feats a level sooner, has gotten their second attribute increase already (and so might NOT be behind much in terms of CON bonus), and so on.

Is it a perfect comparison? No.

Can there be a perfect comparison? HELL NO. I daresay, we'd be hard pressed to balance a HUMAN barbarian against a HALFORC barbarian ... it'd make the Half-orc look stronger, no?

Not everythign has to be perfectlt balanced. It should come as close as possible to fair balance, but perfect balance is a goal only for the foolish (no offense).

 

[Pax]

If you go by Savage Species, they have a LA of +3

(+1 for Natural Amor, +1 for stat bonuses being better than penalities, +1 for 10' reach).

So, why didn't Savage Species follow it's own rules for assigning the H/Ogre's LA?

They do -- unlike you they follow all of them, by then COMPARING.

+3 ECL for the halfogre would be broken, against the halfogre. No way woudl a Halfogre Barbarian(1) be able to even BEGIN to compare to a Barbarian(4) from any of the PHB standard races (not even a halfling!!).

ACID TEST ... it's there for a reason. The FULL Ogre doesn't even rate a +3 ECL ... and that's the first example of the Acid Test they go through!

 

[Hypersmurf]

What they do is, they see how balanced somethign is at the first moment you can use it, compared to what you could have had if you'd played a standard race.

Hmm.

Fair enough, I guess.

-Hyp.

 

[Hardhead]

They do -- unlike you they follow all of them, by then COMPARING.

+3 ECL for the halfogre would be broken, against the halfogre. No way woudl a Halfogre Barbarian(1) be able to even BEGIN to compare to a Barbarian(4) from any of the PHB standard races (not even a halfling!!).

I think the Acid Test has been used here several times to show that it's clearly better than the H/Orc or human at ECL +1, though.

 

[Quinn]

I can see this going either way. A 10' reach is very potent ability, but there are several feats that can negate it. You can create an incredibly powerful half-ogre who uses reach weapons and feats to make this natural ability all the more powerful. Against another tank like fighter, this character will do very well. It will even seem as if ECL +1 is too low.

But why is the determination of ECL always based upon a similar front line fighter type? Against a nimble fighter or a fighter/rogue, the half-ogre's reach advantage is lessened, and sometimes negated. What if the half-ogre is fighting a dwarf, halfling or gnome? The half-ogre's size starts to work against him even further. ECL+1 seems just fine now.

 

[Victim]

A normal tank fighter would fill the same role in the party as the half ogre fighter. The half ogre tank isn't in the same nich as the nimble rogue, the comparision is largely irrelevant.