Save and You're Dead! ... Soon

[Irda Ranger]

Can I get a clarification?

Is it the second saving throw you make that you can die on, or is it the second naturally occuring saving throw due to passage of time?

Meaning, if I use my cleric to grant you a new save, am I just hastening your doom?

This was my first thought too. I don't have an official answer for you, but I'd say no.

Compare with ongoing damage. Rolling a second save in a round does not inflict more ongoing damage, it only gives you a second chance to stop it. I'd rule that your condition track advances at the same time you would take any ongoing damage, regardless of how many saves you make that round.

 

[Cadfan]

Oh, I agree with how it should be. It seems pretty obvious that the "be successfully attacked and then fail to saves" system is meant to create a duration, and an ability which grants extra saves ought not to shortcut the duration. I just wanted to know if the rules covered it officially.

 

[phloog]

Yeah....that's kind of weird. But there is another important detail. If you fail the save, you don't get any resistance to avoid the damage and immunity to necrotic damage doesn't count versus it. This only applies if you fail. If you succeed, you still get any resistance you might have. And trust me, if I'm going to fight orcus, I'm loading up on resistance!

Was this confirming what I had asked about above - - this power really does more damage in some scenarios if it misses than if it hits? I can't actually believe that A) this is how it was meant to work and B) this actually made it through a large amount of playtesting/examination - seems like the first thing to check with any mechanic like this is "is it possible that it suddenly makes it undesirable to actually hit?"

 

[Dragonblade]

Was this confirming what I had asked about above - - this power really does more damage in some scenarios if it misses than if it hits? I can't actually believe that A) this is how it was meant to work and B) this actually made it through a large amount of playtesting/examination - seems like the first thing to check with any mechanic like this is "is it possible that it suddenly makes it undesirable to actually hit?"

Well, without the negative HP tax, there is very little mechanical difference between being at some negative HP value or at 0 HP. You still make death saves and if you get healed you start from zero whether you have negative HPs or not.

The only difference would be if your body got whacked while you were down, but that would be a coup de grace by default anyway since you would be helpless.

Is it mechanically a bit wonky? Sure. But is it wonky enough to matter in all but the most extreme corner cases? No.

 

[Dausuul]

Was this confirming what I had asked about above - - this power really does more damage in some scenarios if it misses than if it hits? I can't actually believe that A) this is how it was meant to work and B) this actually made it through a large amount of playtesting/examination - seems like the first thing to check with any mechanic like this is "is it possible that it suddenly makes it undesirable to actually hit?"

Keep in mind that if your max hit points are 60 (Bloodied 30), there's really not a lot of difference between being at 0 hp and being at -29 hp. Bleeding out is no longer handled through hit point loss, and healing effects reset you to zero and then add to that rather than having to pull you all the way back up through the negatives. So it doesn't much matter exactly how far negative you go, as long as you don't hit negative [Bloodied number] hit points. And conveniently, Orcus's Touch of Death will never quite take you to that number, since you must have at least 1 hit point or you'd be unconscious already.

The only case where it makes a difference is if you get hit again while you're unconscious, potentially taking you over the "auto-kill" threshold. I'm guessing they decided that was unusual enough not to worry about.

 

[phloog]

(SNIPS)

The only case where it makes a difference is if you get hit again while you're unconscious, potentially taking you over the "auto-kill" threshold. I'm guessing they decided that was unusual enough not to worry about.

Thanks...it's not like it's a complete killer -- I guess I would still decide that this is stupid (in that particular scenario) and would immediately house rule it to include text that says "to no less than 0 hp" for the miss.

I'm thinking here about not just Orcus, but on the off chance that other creatures have ill-conceived powers like this...you drop to -15 and I guess that's okay because of the new rules, but doesn't this still mean you're 15 closer to dead? Since so many encounters seem to be major plus minions plus...it seems like you'd want to house rule out the silliness to avoid having your beloved character dropped to -15, then hacked while out of it and prone for another 15 by some minion....at least make them do 30 points to my prone rump.

Seems easy enough to fix, or is this house rule out of line?

(realizing it's an odd scenario, the fact that I was able to find it odd on first read makes it seem weird that they didn't make it max out at 0hp unless they had a good reason...can't believe they just flatout missed that)

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Is it mechanically a bit wonky? Sure. But is it wonky enough to matter in all but the most extreme corner cases? No.

Especially once you multiply the change of that corner case occuring with the chance that a character with 60 hit points is fighting Orcus.

Use a more reasonable hit point number for a wannnabee Orcus slayer, and the difference between Full, bloodied, and zero is enough to make "straight to zero from bloodied" a fairly nasty effect.

 

[Dausuul]

Thanks...it's not like it's a complete killer -- I guess I would still decide that this is moronically stupid (in that particular scenario) and would immediately house rule it to include text that says "to no less than 0 hp" for the miss.

I'm thinking here about not just Orcus, but on the off chance that other creatures have ill-conceived powers like this...you drop to -15 and I guess that's okay because of the new rules, but doesn't this still mean you're 15 closer to dead? Since so many encounters seem to be major plus minions plus...it seems like you'd want to house rule out the silliness to avoid having your beloved character dropped to -15, then hacked while out of it and prone for another 15 by some minion....at least make them do 30 points to my prone rump.

Seems easy enough to fix, or is this house rule out of line?

(realizing it's an odd scenario, the fact that I was able to find it odd on first read makes it seem weird that they didn't make it max out at 0hp unless they had a good reason...can't believe they just flatout missed that)

I doubt they missed it--I sure hope not!--but one of the big drives of 4E was to simplify the rules. I don't see anything wrong with your proposed house-rule, and I may implement a similar one.

 

[keterys]

That human +1 to saves is looking better and better, with effects like that.

 

[phloog]

I doubt they missed it--I sure hope not!--but one of the big drives of 4E was to simplify the rules. I don't see anything wrong with your proposed house-rule, and I may implement a similar one.

If they want to avoid TONS of rule complexity, how about a generic house rule for ALL situations (may need wordsmithing):

Rule 0.003a - - No single attack, ability, power, etc. may have a greater effect on a failed result than would be possible with a success.