Save My Game - Goes off like a bomb!

[Ry]

Wow, uh, godwin's law is totally holding here.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Yeah, and in practice, that limitless imagination shows up in extremely few tabletop games. Just reading what people say about their games at ENWorld drives that point home rather firmly.

"Extremely few" may be the case, but it's never been in the ones in which I've played. The physical and dramatic nature of the games alone is not duplicable in a CRPG, and spontaneity is awfully hard to engineer into a CRPG until we have a team of real-time designers camping on MMORPGs who can change vast elements of the game quickly enough that players don't even notice the difference. Maybe the technology will get there. When it does, it'll be indistinguishable from magic in my book.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Wow, uh, godwin's law is totally holding here.

Was there goose-stepping audible nearby?

 

[Ourph]

So, when people say D&D is like a videogame, they really mean D&D is like a narrowly defined subset of platformer console games (and not any of the many platformers that actually allow multiple solutions to puzzles)?

First, are you saying those games aren't video games? The last time I looked thos "narrowly defined subset of platformer console games" were still in the video game section of the store. They hadn't been moved to the board game section or the hardware department or anything.

Second, I just want to say for the record that I never said "D&D is like a video-game". In fact, I said the exact opposite, "D&D is not like a video game and if you approach it as a video game you're missing out on part of what makes RPGs special." If you're looking to argue with someone about whether "D&D is like a video game" you'll have to quote someone else.

 

[Emirikol]

I like my games like an Indiana Jones movie. I always hated DMs' that did the "Guess what I'm thinking" bit. You can usually tell, they're the guys that say, "I let my players flounder for a bit."

Not that you dont' want thinking players or to give them time to squirm on some issues (I usually leave them hanging while I go to the bathroom..a real cliffhanger

jh

 

[ruleslawyer]

Non-crpging is, in some respects, a lot more limited. You're limited by what the other players want to do. If you want to do shady deals with the thieves guild and the other players all want to go dragon slaying then how free are you? You're limited by what the GM has prepared. You're limited by the GM's tastes.

Compare that to my favourite style of crpg. Games like Morrowind, Oblivion and World of Warcraft. You have a choice of dozens if not hundreds of quests. You can roam freely, make money, learn magic, be good, evil, lawful, chaotic, whatever you want.

Interesting. I see this as two different problems:

1) Doing what the individual [player] wants vs. what the group [of players] wants. IMHO, this is a *feature* of group games rather than a bug. (Incidentally, I fail to see how this is a tabletop-specific issue, since I can't imagine that you can flout the other players' interests willy-nilly in a co-op game without having them get upset.) Players figure out how to work together, how to scheme against each other, or how to harmonize individual objectives with group objectives. All very fun stuff IMX.

2) Doing what the player want vs. what the DM has prepared. IMHO again, this is a potential bug of any play involving a GM who isn't willing to be flexible. It's a personality issue. I allow my players to do whatever the heck they want in my games; if it's not something I have prepped, fine; I'll wing it. Pretty much the only time it upsets me is when they do things that are utterly out of (previous) character or completely suicidal, in which case my own suspension of disbelief may be violated or I have to scramble to devise a creative way out. [Given enchantment spells and geasa, I'm lucky enough to usually have one if they attack an overly-powerful wizard; attacking overly-powerful monsters is tougher to deal with.]

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Yeah, and in practice, that limitless imagination shows up in extremely few tabletop games. Just reading what people say about their games at ENWorld drives that point home rather firmly.

And don't forget, ENWorld is a community heavily peopled by veteran GMs who have been playing and running games for years - in some cases decades. They're likely to have more tricks up their sleeves than an average GM, yet what you're saying still holds true.

 

[Ourph]

But see, good game designers exist in the video game world, too. I've seen some incredible work on the mods for NWN, and custom maps and adventures even for first person shooters.

You're giving short shrift to video game designers who can be every bit as creative and original as RPG designers.

I'm not giving short shrift to anybody, least of all video game designers, because I'm not comparing RPG designers and video game designers. I'm comparing DMs and microprocessors. The fact is, neither an RPG designer nor a video game designer is going to come to your house and sit with you while you play their game so they can modify things to your liking. The advantage that RPGs have is that the RPG designer's proxy is a living, thinking, sometimes-creative human being whereas the proxy for the video game designer is an inert piece of silicon. In theory, the human being should be more flexible and customizable than the inert silicon.

If you don't find that to be the case then I shudder to imagine what kind of human beings you are used to interacting with.

What you seem to be forgetting, is that the human imagination is also responsible for video games.

Why do you keep reading this as me somehow "dissing" video games. I'm not. Acknowledging that video games are different than pen-n-paper RPGs and face different limitations is not an insult.

There are significant, tangible benefits and perks that a face-to-face game can offer that most video games do not.

But being creative is not one of those advantages.

I never once said that video game designers, video game players or the video games themselves are not creative. I'm not going to repeat myself, as I think I was pretty clear in my original post. I'll just say that any insult you may have read into the comments in my original post toward video games, video game designers or people who play video games were imaginery (and very, very creative) and I take no responsibility for your reaction.

 

[molonel]

Perhaps I failed to state my point clearly. I'm not talking about scenario design, although I would argue that Ed Greenwood's vision of the Forgotten Realms far exceeds the narrative vision for Azeroth. [In that sense, it doesn't matter, since they use different media (the written word vs. images); I'd certainly say the graphics people for WoW, let alone something like Shadow of the Colossus, have it in spades over most fantasy artists.] I'm perfectly happy to agree that there are scenarios ("published modules") for all kinds of CRPGs that are marvels of plot and narrative design.

Fair enough.

However, that's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about adaptation to individual games and players moment by moment. I'm fully aware that there are people making real-time adjustments in some MMORPGs, but what I'm talking about is winging entire scenarios, tactics, behavior of existing and new NPCs, and spontaneous events on the fly. The nature of the medium dictates that CRPGs cannot do that. Creative and narrative flexibility is something that's possible in tabletop because there's active, instantaneous communication between DM and players. I'm sure there are less imaginative DMs out there who don't make the best use of their creative faculties and the flexibility of the medium, but by the same token, there are tons of ugly-ass videogames out there.

What they lack in that one aspect, though, they make up for in other areas, and that's part of the reason WoW sold a million copies in the first week of release.

1. It's continuous. I'm lucky if I can get a group of grown adults together once a week to game, what with children, responsibilities and jobs.
2. It's rich, and draws from a multitude of imaginations. Running two d20 Modern games right now and adapting to merely eight players and their individual agendas is taxing. While there may be a certain sameness among some of the missions, you can easily participate in a mass battle sequence with 20 or 30 people that looks like something out of a movie. It may be somewhat predictable, sometimes, but come on. We all knew Sauron was going to bite it in the end, too, right?
3. It's accessible. You can log on anywhere in the world, and it's still there.

So I agree, there are some things that face-to-face tabletop games offer that a video game of whatever complexity and richness cannot offer.

But I think the comparisons I see on this forum between RPGs and video games - and I've read dozens, and not a single one positive - almost always exaggerate the strengths of one over the weaknesses of the other.

I'm not giving short shrift to anybody, least of all video game designers, because I'm not comparing RPG designers and video game designers. I'm comparing DMs and microprocessors. The fact is, neither an RPG designer nor a video game designer is going to come to your house and sit with you while you play their game so they can modify things to your liking. The advantage that RPGs have is that the RPG designer's proxy is a living, thinking, sometimes-creative human being whereas the proxy for the video game designer is an inert piece of silicon. In theory, the human being should be more flexible and customizable than the inert silicon. If you don't find that to be the case then I shudder to imagine what kind of human beings you are used to interacting with. Why do you keep reading this as me somehow "dissing" video games. I'm not. Acknowledging that video games are different than pen-n-paper RPGs and face different limitations is not an insult. I never once said that video game designers, video game players or the video games themselves are not creative. I'm not going to repeat myself, as I think I was pretty clear in my original post. I'll just say that any insult you may have read into the comments in my original post toward video games, video game designers or people who play video games were imaginery (and very, very creative) and I take no responsibility for your reaction.

Video games are not just "different" from tabletop RPGs. In some aspects, they are superior, and offer more accessibility to more people. I know that's going to draw gasps of shock and horror from folks here. But I don't play video games. I prefer tabletop RPGs. I recognize, though, there mine is a niche hobby. It's competing against other activities that are just as creative, just as imaginative and offer a level of mechanical complexity sometimes that only games like GURPS can hope to match.

The comparisons I see between RPGs and video games on this forum have always been negative, and your post was no exception. I didn't read insult in your post, nor am I insulted, personally. So you don't need to take responsibility for anything that I didn't claim.

 

[Voadam]

Perhaps a poor example on my part, but I was saying the latter, that the players were the ones solving the problem and not the characters (via Int or Wis for example). The barbarian comes up with the answer to a math puzzle... just doesn't seem right to me.

The barbarian in the sphinx room has the option to go "Interesting question." Quickdraw rage full power attack "That's my answer!"