Save-or-die spells with reflex saves?

[nameless]

I know a whole lot of spells that are effectively save-or-die with will and fort saves. Polymorph is the quitessential Fort save, and Hold X is the quintessential Will save. But what can kill/make helpless someone that uses a Reflex save? I hate fireballs and such, because they honestly don't do enough damage to kill stuff.

The only spells that come to mind that have a reflex save for non-damaging effects are Web and the Wall spells.

So tell me... how do wizards deal with cleric saves?

-nameless

 

[Crothian]

Fireball. Sure, you don't kill them. But it does damage them. It's better then the all or nothing of these other spells.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So tell me... how do wizards deal with cleric saves?

Hit them with multiple Enervations until their good saves suck.

Then slap the Finger of Death on them.

-Hyp.

 

[StealthyMark]

...or hit them with multiple Empowered Enervation spells.

 

[StealthyMark]

Another possibility is Grease. On the cleric's weapon or his holy symbol.

 

[Dwarmaj]

Check out Chains of Vengance in BoEM

4th level Sor/Wiz spell that allows a Ref save. If the save fails they take 2d6 damage per round and are rendered helpless (I guess they could do verbal only spells).

Dwarmaj

 

[CullAfulMoshuN]

How about using a wall of Ice spell to trap them in a hemisphere? Not necessarily an instant kill, but if they fail their save they are trapped there when you cast cloud kill or summon swarm the next round.

 

[Gromm]

Earthquake is the only spell I know of that has a reflex save or die.

Basically it comes down to the ideas behind the saves, anything that automatically kills you gets a Fort save, anything that makes you helpless generally gets a Will save, and anything you have to avoid (generally area effects) gets a Reflex save.

There are a few exceptions, but overall its how it works.

 

[mmu1]

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, while not save-or-die, can perform a similar function - anyone encased in it is out of the combat for 1 minute/level, allowing time to take care of other enemies and then get ready to deal with the trapped person at your leisure. Unless they're capable of casting Dispel Magic, anyway...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Earthquake is the only spell I know of that has a reflex save or die.

And it's a Cleric spell.

There's another good reason Wizards don't have Reflex-Save-or-Die spells : Otto's Irresistible Dance.

-Hyp.