Saves vs defenses

[Flipguarder]

Anyone else agree that it was more fun when players got to actively try against traps and special abilities? As a DM I always feel on the offensive attacking my pcs with d20s much more than in 3.5.
Technically it should balance out because instead of them rolling against a dc, Im rolling against their defense. A d20 is used in both situations. But I just feel like it makes the game more fun if the players have more of an active role in preventing problems.

Is there something I'm missing as to why Wotc went this way in 4e? Some balance idea I'm not thinking of? Simplification maybe?

 

[FireLance]

I think WotC is simply adopting an "attacker rolls" convention. You are quite right that you can adopt an alternate "player rolls" convention under which the player rolls for the PC's attacks against the monsters' passive defences, and for the PC's defences against the monsters' passive attacks without changing the probabilities (just add 11 instead of 10 to passive attacks). And even though the probabilities are the same, the player would feel that he is taking on more of an active role in avoiding the attack.

 

[MarkB]

I saw this as a potential, theoretical problem when 4e was initially released, but in actually playing the game, it just hasn't been an issue at all.

Once you've run through a few combats and got used to how things work, it feels very natural, and no more adversarial than any other edition.

And between saving throws to remove conditions, powers that protect allies, positional and terrain-related advantages, and a number of racial and utility powers that can interrupt or mitigate attacks, players still feel like they're taking an active part in defending themselves.

 

[CapnZapp]

The opposite issue arose in 3E, where some DMs would like their players to roll all dice - including for the actions of their opponents.

It was relatively easy to work this out then, and it is the same now.

Whether it's worth messing around with details like this is an entirely different question, however.

 

[cmbarona]

Perhaps it's just because I'm more immersed in 4e than 3.5, but I actually prefer the defense mechanic. The old saving throws usually made me feel that I was attacking myself on a regular basis.

 

[lukelightning]

I like the 4e defense system; it seems to keep the flow of the game going. In 3e saving throws make me feel more like I'm on the defensive all the time; the enemy's spell "always hits" and now I have to try to get out of it.

And as an attack, I like being able to roll to hit the monsters' defenses; no more of this "ok, I cast the spell, keep my fingers crossed and hope the DM doesn't roll too high....(or fudge the roll)"

 

[Tilenas]

I like the 4e defense system; it seems to keep the flow of the game going. In 3e saving throws make me feel more like I'm on the defensive all the time; the enemy's spell "always hits" and now I have to try to get out of it.

I see quite a paradigm shift here, especially with regard to spells: Whereas before your spells were automatically successful, unless your target succeeded in its save, now the spell/power is successful, only if you succeed in your attack. Mechanically and probabilitywise it's the same, but it feels very different to me. And I must say, moving away from the concept of spells as the "I win" button pleases me very much.

 

[satori01]

it works out better in the long run, as in 3.5 especially at the higher levels in regards to Save vs No or Half damage spells, the Saving Throws of the monsters were often Auto Save (Dragons, Outsiders= perfect saves).

Thus, the player might hit with a spell, and then be told by the DM that the effect was negated either in whole or part.

By having the player attack a defense, they feel less like the DM is hosing them.

 

[Flipguarder]

I guess my main beef is traps.

Say I put a flame jet series on staircase. They make no perception check, it beats thier passive, the first thing they hear sometimes is "Flames shoot out of the wall and sear you, doing 20 fire damage and 5 ongoing damage."

At least with the save system they were able to do SOMETHING before taking damage. Thats the thing I have the most problem with i spose.

 

[satori01]

Which is not really different than a lurking monster getting a surprise round to attack first.....4E really encourages traps to be more like monsters with more longevity and an element in an encounter....than a one off effect.