Saving throw question

[Jimlock]

The sort of ambiguity I meant was that the spell first refers to affecting unattended objects and later to all objects in the area.

What's ambiguous about saying that an unattended object is also an object in the area of the spell?
Ambiguity would have existed if the spell did not make clear which items get affected.
The spell simply states that unattended objects (equipment/items not held or on a PC/NPC, equipment/items that perhaps belong to the PC/NPC) share the same fate with all the miscellaneous items in the area.
It clarifies "unattended" so that a player cannot claim "hey my scroll was not set on fire! It might have been left on the floor but it is a part of my equipment!"

Normally an attended object makes saves using its attender's bonuses but probably not using it's features affecting the results. However the net is probably not an attended object and shares it's faith merely cause it moves with the warrior. DM's call I guess.

This is correct. Items only get the PC's save bonus, not misc. features. However, if i allowed a save at all, i'd rule that evasion stands for the net as well. It doesn't make cense that a rogue gets no damage and the net gets destroyed while being wrapped all around him.

 

[Tharkon]

It still has to MAKE saves, obviously, but the fighter's bonuses/penalties aren't going to apply to it. It would be treated as an unattended object.

Unattended non-magical objects don't make saves. They are treated as if they failed them.

Ambiguity would have existed if the spell did not make clear which items get affected.

Well maybe not ambiguity but more contradiction.
The first part implies attended objects don't get affected.
The second part implies they do get affected.

This is correct. Items only get the PC's save bonus, not misc. features. However, if i allowed a save at all, i'd rule that evasion stands for the net as well. It doesn't make cense that a rogue gets no damage and the net gets destroyed while being wrapped all around him.

I'm still wondering how a creature with Evasion can avoid all damage from the fireball without leaving its space, but I guess that's the part where you have to accept it's a game.

 

[Light Knight]

Ok i thought of something else that made finally COMPLETELY agree with (a).

When someone uses alter self while entangled in the net. His own equipment will transmute into the new form, but the net will not....

Now i see that the case (b) from my previous post is no further an option.

That doesnt make any sense, since the spell specifically states if the item is worn and can be worn on the new form, it does not change. So how does that change how the net is treated.

 

[Jimlock]

That doesnt make any sense, since the spell specifically states if the item is worn and can be worn on the new form, it does not change. So how does that change how the net is treated.

read the last post of this thread

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/305770-polymorph-questions.html#post5557436

 

[Jimlock]

Well maybe not ambiguity but more contradiction.
The first part implies attended objects don't get affected.
The second part implies they do get affected.

well not really...
The first part does not "imply" attended objects don't get affected. It says it.
When you say Unattended objects also take this damage, you also "mean" that: attended objects do not take the damage. Moreover, the first part covers damage to creatures and to their attended/unattended...ergo the "also"

The second part: The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area refers to "environmental" items in the area, such as barrels crates etc. etc...

Ok... i think we allready know what each other means about two posts ago.... i'm just saying

I'm still wondering how a creature with Evasion can avoid all damage from the fireball without leaving its space, but I guess that's the part where you have to accept it's a game.

True.
If it makes you feel any better, think that a 5X5 feet square is "perhaps" enough to make some maneuvers...
Don't forget how Neo dodges the bullets without moving his feet!

 

[Tharkon]

The second part: The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area refers to "environmental" items in the area, such as barrels crates etc. etc...

Why would "attended objects" be excluded from "objects in the area" if they are in fact in the area, or from "combustibles" if they are in fact combustible?
That would mean if I was holding a match in the center of a fireball the match would not only not be destroyed, but not even lit afterward, simply cause I was holding on to it? I'd say that at least exposed attended objects are also affected. Since fireballs don't create any kind of pressure it is reasonable to assume that items inside bags and such are safe as long as the bag doesn't catch flame (and medieval bags weren't made of nylon or other oil-based fabrics, so they probably weren't that flammable).

True.
If it makes you feel any better, think that a 5X5 feet square is "perhaps" enough to make some maneuvers...
Don't forget how Neo dodges the bullets without moving his feet!

Now I want to see Neo dodge a 20 ft. bullet without moving his feet though. We could assume that a fireball doesn't affect the ground and quickly ducking would help, but that doesn't match the fact it applies to objects lying on the floor. I'm actually considering a house rule that Reflex saves do make you move (shortest part to save space). Before I play-test it is there anyone that can see obvious problems with such a rule?

 

[Summer-Knight925]

I'd say the net is something different, since the warrior isn't 1. in control 2. wanting it there and 3. its a net

but with this thought in mind

last night my cleric was going to plainshift a spinosaurus away (most likely to a plane of fire or something, somewhere not nice) but he grappled our barbarian

wouuld both of them be wisked away or just one? or would it be 2 seperate saves?

 

[frankthedm]

last night my cleric was going to plainshift a spinosaurus away (most likely to a plane of fire or something, somewhere not nice) but he grappled our barbarian

wouuld both of them be wisked away or just one? or would it be 2 seperate saves?

Plane shift requires you to touch an unwilling target and you'd only get ONE unwilling target. As long as you touch the dino, the barbarian would be unaffected. ( Situations like these are why critical fumbles are needed IMHO. )

Target: Creature touched, or up to eight willing creatures joining hands

 

[PureGoldx58]

Now I want to see Neo dodge a 20 ft. bullet without moving his feet though. We could assume that a fireball doesn't affect the ground and quickly ducking would help, but that doesn't match the fact it applies to objects lying on the floor. I'm actually considering a house rule that Reflex saves do make you move (shortest part to save space). Before I play-test it is there anyone that can see obvious problems with such a rule?

Because that gives every caster the Metamagic Feat Knockback if their DC is low enough?

 

[Jimlock]

Why would "attended objects" be excluded from "objects in the area" if they are in fact in the area, or from "combustibles" if they are in fact combustible?

-So that players don't have to buy equipment/clothes from scratch every time they are hit by energy type abilities/spells.
-So that the DM/players don't lose any more time so as to roll saves for every item.
-Because of balance issues.
-Because it's a game.

Now I want to see Neo dodge a 20 ft. bullet without moving his feet though. We could assume that a fireball doesn't affect the ground and quickly ducking would help, but that doesn't match the fact it applies to objects lying on the floor. I'm actually considering a house rule that Reflex saves do make you move (shortest part to save space). Before I play-test it is there anyone that can see obvious problems with such a rule?

I like to think that when the fireball (or any other energy type area ability/spell) explodes, it is not an all encompassing red sphere of death. There are "areas/currents" more dense than others, and even a few that are almost empty. When someone rolls for a Reflex save successfully he manages to move his body in those less dense areas, while another with evasion is so good and fast at finding those harmless/less-dence/empty "areas/currents" that he manages to stay unharmed.

I clearly understand how this is far-fetched, but on the other hand in does make cense, which is enough to satisfy my "in-game" realism.