Saving throws-always fail on 1?

[Trainz]

Also notable is the optional rule in ELH that gives a creature with 21+ levels the ability to reroll one die roll once per day, so that gives PC's a chance (it also means critters won't die the first time they miss their save).

Way back in 1st edition, I DM'ed for a friend of mine his PC that was a ranger 25 / magic user 30 / druid 21. He had been playing that character for 5 years. I threw 30 pit fiends at him, using an ability that had him save or die. He would fail on a 1. He picked up his d20, and proceeded to roll it 30 times... never once rolling a 1.

That was a memorable game.

 

[Branduil]

A counter example is that a 20th level fighter attempting to strike a prone, asleep, kobold with his axe will miss 5% of the time..... probably exactly the same probability as a 1st level fighter.

He'll only have a chance of missing if he doesn't coup de gras the kobold. Coup de gras' automatically hit.

 

[Legildur]

He'll only have a chance of missing if he doesn't coup de gras the kobold. Coup de gras' automatically hit.

Which is exactly why I didn't use the Coup de Grace example....

 

[Branduil]

Which is exactly why I didn't use the Coup de Grace example....

True... I was merely pointing out that a 20th-level fighter who doesn't coup-de-gras a helpless enemy deserves to miss.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

A counter example is that a 20th level fighter attempting to strike a prone, asleep, kobold with his axe will miss 5% of the time..... probably exactly the same probability as a 1st level fighter.

And similarly, a geriatric village peasant would strike AC 50 5% of the time..... the same as say a 10th level fighter.... This is where it breaks down.

I'm not sure I see it as breaking down. Perhaps what you're suggesting is that 5% auto-failure or 5% auto-success is too much; there should always be a chance of something bad (the "f***-up") or good (the "fluke") happening, but it should be less than 5%. I could live with that, and indeed always rquire a second d20 roll after an attack roll of natural 1 to loosely determine the consequences of the natural 1 (very low = very bad, low = bad, high = not much, very high = a mixed blessing).

As for the "1 = -10, 20 = 30" crowd, it isn't a solution. It just means you need a few more bonuses to get the additional certainty. What these people are advocating is that there comes a point where there is no chance involved in an inherently chance-laden situation - combat. I'd conjecture the military-trained people who frequent these boards would suggest that no matter how good your equipment, training, intelligence, support, every combat has a " happens" factor.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Legildur]

....you're suggesting is that 5% auto-failure or 5% auto-success is too much; there should always be a chance of something bad (the "f***-up") or good (the "fluke") happening, but it should be less than 5%. I could live with that, and indeed always rquire a second d20 roll after an attack roll of natural 1 to loosely determine the consequences of the natural 1 (very low = very bad, low = bad, high = not much, very high = a mixed blessing).

Exactly

After seeing the EPH optional rule, I like that and will try and have my groups adopt it over our house rule.

 

[Thanee]

As andargor said, I think the ELH rule is very good for skill checks and maybe saves as well, while I would always use the simple rule for attack rolls.

Bye
Thanee