Saving throws are a coin toss?

[Felon]

Good thing, then, that the design goal of the power isn't to create a lasting effect.

Seems like you were so busy trying to be sarcastic that you didn't really read what you were replying to.

 

[Mephistopheles]

How sure are we that you can save to recover from the Sleep spell's unconsciousness? That seems to be the rub, rather than the slowed -> unconscious progression.

I would have thought that once you were unconscious it's no longer a magical effect, and you don't get to make further saves (unless/until someone does something to wake you up - such as trying to decapitate you for example ).

Hit: The target is slowed (save ends). If the target fails its first saving throw against this power, the target becomes unconscious (save ends).

Seems pretty straightforward.

 

[Henry]

If you read the blogs, reviews, etc. on these forums again, you find that the save takes place at the END of the creature's turn. If the caster hits the Will defense, then the victims get AT LEAST one turn asleep, before they can make their saves. Then once they wake up they need to get off the floor, I imagine. And you know what the Klingons say about a running man with a knife...

Can't remember the post now to save my life, but I do know it came out of someone's playtest report. Rodrigo's maybe?
I knew being obsessive-compulsive about all this info would finally pay off.

 

[jaer]

So my wizard uses his daily sleep power on a mass of kobolds. Hie misses half. Of the half that are hit, half of them make their initial saving throw. The ones that fail fall asleep, but they get saves every round to wake up. It certainly seemed pretty darn weak.

I'm curious when the creature gets to save. My thought is that it is on the creature's turn, not when the spell is cast. I don't know, but considering the spell has an effect for a hit or miss, it would seem odd that it would also have a save right then to be removed. Even more so that on a hit, the target is slowed until it fails it's first save...implies there is time between the two.

So, in your example, the wizard uses his sleep. Half the kobolds are hit, and the other half are missed; all are slowed. The PCs then get to go and then, as the kobold's act, they start getting saves to remove the slow or fall asleep. The save might happen at the end of the kobold's turn, or maybe it is on the wizard's turn, but there must be a turn in between, during which the spell is in effect, and one round of all those kobold's being slowed could turn the battle. And if some stayed slow or fall asleep the next round, even better!

 

[Kordeth]

Seems pretty straightforward.

It's possible (not likely, I admit, but possible) that the "save ends" on the sleep effect is part and parcel of the definition of the "sleeping" condition and not contingent on the spell itself. For instance, maybe a sleeping character gets a saving throw to wake up during the general din of combat, or if there's some other source of noise or discomfort that might wake a sleeper. In that case, sleep is kept from getting ridiculous in combat but still allows for the old "knock out the guards and sneak into the castle" trick with a reasonable chance of success.

 

[Mephistopheles]

I'm curious when the creature gets to save. My thought is that it is on the creature's turn, not when the spell is cast. I don't know, but considering the spell has an effect for a hit or miss, it would seem odd that it would also have a save right then to be removed. Even more so that on a hit, the target is slowed until it fails it's first save...implies there is time between the two.

My understanding is...

The Wizard attempts to hit each target's Will defense in the area of effect. Those that are missed are slowed (save ends). Those that are hit are slowed (save ends), but if they fail their first save they then fall unconscious (save ends). Saves are at the end of the target's turn so either they will be slowed for one or more rounds or slowed for one round and then unconscious for one or more rounds.

 

[Ahglock]

Good thing, then, that the design goal of the power isn't to create a lasting effect.

Yeah but it seems there are no lasting effects. Sleep is level 1, I wouldn't expect its effects to be particularly lasting. But high level curses and the like I do.

"For you infidelity I curse you with impotence......For the next 6 to 12 seconds offer is not valid in NJ, CA, or PN."

Kind of lame IMO.

 

[Felon]

Yes, yes, good lord yes, guys, I understand that the saves happen at the end of the target creature's round. When I was describing the effect in my original post, I just didn't break it down round-by-round. Suffice to say, the days of using sleep to reliably take someone out of commission for more than a matter of seconds is long gone. The net effect is losing an action or two, and I can't say I love that. Maybe there's a greater sleep spell or somesuch that actually sedates someone.

Soooo...what DO the klingons say about the guy running with a knife?

 

[IceFractal]

One thing that bugs me: 10+ is not a 50/50 chance, it's a 55% chance to break the effect. They could have said 11+ and actually had a 50/50 chance, but no. :\

Since the save occurs at the end of their turn, most effects now last 1.45 rounds. I guess that's alright in itself, but it does mean that most "ongoing damage" effects are a lot less potent than they first appeared.

Also, it's a bit simplistic for me. You have the same chance to shake off the effects of a demigod's curse as indigestion from a spoiled turnip? And equally, even if you're the world's greatest archmage, you can't keep a drunken goblin slowed/blinded/whatever for more than a couple rounds.

 

[Incenjucar]

I'm pretty sure that Curse of Impotence is a ritual.

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You realize that it's entirely possible for there to be modifiers to saves in both directions, right?

Also longer periods between chances to save?