Saving Throws Post March Errata

[Starfox]

Forked from the quoted thread to another forum.

It would be nice to see some more buffs in with the nerfs...I always feel like the errata is always knocking the power out of everything. So of it deserved, some of it not so much.

I think the orb change was a bit too much. I also like the once per encounter, after a saving throw is made you can apply a penalty. Still strong and useful, but not overpowered.


I'm also on the fence on saving throw penalties. My problem with them isn't the duration its the scaling. I often feel that saving throws with no penalty aren't that strong. I would usually rather have a power that lasts "until the end of my next turn". With things like cunning weapons they get a bit better.

I didn't mind that a weapon can give a character -2 on the saving throw powers as long as that's it.

Agree very strongly. However, now that save modifiers have been nerfed, it is actually possible to make saving throws harder. You can change the base saving throw number to 12+ or 15+ and it won't make saving impossible with even the smallest penalty. This way, Save Ends can actually be an advantage over Until the end of your next turn.

With a save DC of 12, Elites have the same chance to save as standard monsters have now. With a DC of 15, solos have the same chance to save as standard monsters have now.

If you do this, should it only apply to monsters, or to PCs as well?

 

[eriktheguy]

I would suggest higher DCs for ongoing damage, but maintaining the DCs for stunned and dazed and blinded.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think its OK like it is now. On average a save ends effect lasts 2 rounds. Safest thing is to try to use them when the chances are good your allies can take advantage of that fact before the monster goes. If none of them can, well you either take your chance or do something else. Delay your turn till right after the target goes and then hit them if you just MUST.

The problem is anything past a two round stun or even dazed for a lot of monsters means you've pretty much tipped the encounter your way. It will up the power of save ends conditions a lot to make them last that much longer. Most regular monsters on average will be out of the battle at needing a 15+ to save. Couple that also with an OoII and its a way to lock down several monsters per game with great certainty.

And Solos, they should brush off such petty things as you stunning them. If you're lucky you get another shot at him before he shakes it off. Those are story monsters. They should never be helpless unless the plot says so.

 

[Marshall]

I strongly disagree. Any critter thats likely to be around more than two rounds probably has some form of bonus to saves. High level critters have ways to ways to make extra saves.

Save ends is wayy overrated, EONT at least guarantees one round.(Which is a pain in the ARSE as a player)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I strongly disagree. Any critter thats likely to be around more than two rounds probably has some form of bonus to saves. High level critters have ways to ways to make extra saves.

Save ends is wayy overrated, EONT at least guarantees one round.(Which is a pain in the ARSE as a player)

Really? What ways are those? I can think of only a tiny handful of solo monsters that can trigger an extra save. Those are practically all 'capstone' monsters you would encounter at the end of a campaign and not even all of those have something like that.

The save bonuses available to solo and elite monsters are just about barely enough to allow them a pretty good chance of saving quickly. For a solo facing an effect where there is no save penalty they are obviously going to save most of the time, but even with the general nerfing of save penalty effects it is still quite possible to impose penalties to give you a much higher chance of another round of lockdown on the monster. Low level PCs indeed are unlikely to keep a solo down for long but that isn't really a bad thing. Drop a few save ends effects on them and it works.

The other night I tossed a solo monster against the group I run for. They were fully rested and tossed several daily powers at it. The save ends effects of these powers kept the monster immobilized and dazed for 2 rounds out of the 8 rounds of the battle, which was a major contribution. Considering they also had other effects like prone a couple times it felt quite adequate for a level 10 encounter and there was considerable tension around whether or not the monster would fail a save (which it did a couple times).

I'd be OK with a save bonus for solos of +3 or even +2 at heroic tier. The main goal is to make sure that the probability of a solo being locked down for long is relatively low and they won't spend turn after turn stunned, dazed, or immobilized. I could even see a specific bonus for the more severe conditions and none for the less severe ones, but no way is it OK for solos to be spending 3+ rounds on average crippled.

 

[Starfox]

The trouble is not so much the power of save-ends effects. The problem is how save-ends are so very often less desirable and last a shorter time than end of next turn effects. And Save ends is obviously intended to be better - it is usually the province of daily powers.

The cost/benefit ratio is completely screwed. A Swordmage end up being a better single-target controller that a Wizard because of all the end of next turn effects.

 

[ender_wiggin]

I regularly give my solos two full turns in combat, and allow a maximum of one of them to be stunned or dazed. Immobilization affects both, but they usually have excellent range powers so it rarely been an issue.

This is a WOTC invention that I've generalized for most (if not all) solos.

This way, I can allow the players to stun and daze to their heart's content, as it has significant effects on the solo's action capabilities, but never cripples it.