D&D 5E Saving Throws

[LostSoul]

Yes, necessarily. I asked this on Twitter, and Mearls said that in a "target determines DC" system, the chance to resist would be the same.

I know this is how 1e and 2e did it, but it seems odd to me after all these years. I then asked if this idea could be coupled with 4e's "DC by level" table, with columns for Easy, Average and Hard for more variance.

I have a theory about what's changed over the years. I think that saving throws were made when you were about to take some kind of effect that you could not avoid - there's no dodging a fireball, for example. You make a saving throw to see how lucky you got (or how much divine intervention you receive, or if your magical powers allow you to resist the spell, or if you can just tough it out, or whatever).

If you could avoid the effect then you wouldn't need to make a saving throw.

In that system there's no reason for the save from a 1st-level wizard's cause fear to be harder than a 20th-level lich's. The fear - from either source - is not something you can avoid; you are terrified, now let's make a save to see if you can luck out of it somehow. (I think that's why they have the HD limits on spells, too.)

These days you can dodge fireballs and shake off ghoul paralysis, and you make a saving throw to see if you do or not.

 

[GX.Sigma]

But then you have a character having the same chance of shrugging off a 1st-level wizard's Cause Fear, a lich's fear aura and a dragon's fearsome presence.

Not really. I mean, yes, the DC will be the same, but the effect will be worse even on a failed save. Example:

Cause Fear
Failed Save: Target is frightened for 1 minute.
Successful Save: Nothing happens.

Lich Fear Aura
Failed Save: Target is frightened for 1 minute, and must use movement to run away.
Successful Save: Target is frightened for 1 minute.

Dragon Fear Aura
Failed Save: Target is frightened and stunned for 1 minute.
Successful Save: Target is frightened for 1 minute, and must use movement to run away.

Or something like that.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Prior to 3e, weak or powerful effects sometimes had a minus or plus attached to the saving throw. In the 2e Monstrous Manual, saves versus a giant centipede's poison have a +4 bonus, while mind flayer spell-like abilities, such as suggestion, apply a -4 penalty.

 

[billd91]

Prior to 3e, weak or powerful effects sometimes had a minus or plus attached to the saving throw. In the 2e Monstrous Manual, saves versus a giant centipede's poison have a +4 bonus, while mind flayer spell-like abilities, such as suggestion, apply a -4 penalty.

And this is probably one of the relatively few issues that I think the 1e/2e system had - several creatures or situations that imposed a modifier to the save. From a usability perspective, it was clunkier than simply assigning a DC as we had in 3e. I think it worked reasonably well, it was just a little bit harder to describe and communicate than setting a save DC.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Prior to 3e, weak or powerful effects sometimes had a minus or plus attached to the saving throw. In the 2e Monstrous Manual, saves versus a giant centipede's poison have a +4 bonus, while mind flayer spell-like abilities, such as suggestion, apply a -4 penalty.

Mearls has already said on twitter that he doesn't want to do that, since it defeats the whole purpose of doing it this way.

 

[Klaus]

Not really. I mean, yes, the DC will be the same, but the effect will be worse even on a failed save. Example:

Cause Fear
Failed Save: Target is frightened for 1 minute.
Successful Save: Nothing happens.

Lich Fear Aura
Failed Save: Target is frightened for 1 minute, and must use movement to run away.
Successful Save: Target is frightened for 1 minute.

Dragon Fear Aura
Failed Save: Target is frightened and stunned for 1 minute.
Successful Save: Target is frightened for 1 minute, and must use movement to run away.

Or something like that.

That kinda negates the biggest advantage of bounded accuracy (creatures are useable in a broader range), because Cause Fear will likely mean nothing to high level creatures (who make their saves more often than not), and Dragonfear will TPK a lower level party (who fail their saves more often than not).

 

[keterys]

Klaus - saving throws don't go up as you level, so I'm not sure why the high level party would be more likely to make the save than a low level party.

As far as I can tell, they're both equally screwed.

 

[Klaus]

Klaus - saving throws don't go up as you level, so I'm not sure why the high level party would be more likely to make the save than a low level party.

As far as I can tell, they're both equally screwed.

Clarification: I am commenting on the Saving Throw system proposed in the latest podcast and on Twitter, where the target's level determines the save DC.

In this system, a low level target has high save DCs, and a high level target has low save DCs (think 1e/2e). Therefore, a high-level target will make its saves more often than a low-level one.

 

[GX.Sigma]

That kinda negates the biggest advantage of bounded accuracy (creatures are useable in a broader range), because Cause Fear will likely mean nothing to high level creatures (who make their saves more often than not), and Dragonfear will TPK a lower level party (who fail their saves more often than not).

The other purpose of bounded accuracy is that characters actually get better over time. I don't see anything wrong with a 20th-level character shrugging off a 1st-level spell.

Also, I doubt the save progression will be so steep as to make spells like that totally irrelevant. Attack bonus and spellcasting bonus only get better by 5 over 20 levels; I imagine save DCs would range from 15->10 for most classes (or more like 15->5 for paladins, or 20->10 for wizards).

 

[Klaus]

The other purpose of bounded accuracy is that characters actually get better over time. I don't see anything wrong with a 20th-level character shrugging off a 1st-level spell.

The character wouldn't be shrugging off 1st-level spells, he'd be shrugging off most effects that require saves. Remember how high-level 1e and 2e characters ended up needing a natural 1 to fail a save?