Scaling initiative

[Nim]

So, I was thinking about initiative. And it seems...odd to me that while all classes gain in fighting ability (read: BAB) as they advance in level, initiative is based solely on Dexterity and a feat. Reaction speed really can be looked at in part as a matter of experience: having the right instincts ground into you by encounter after encounter. Physical speed (Dex) does play a part, but mental preparedness and having rehersed the right responses to sudden danger over and over again is also a huge factor, and that's the sort of thing that ALL adventurers should be picking up over time.

Or, put another way: in movies and literature, how often do the mooks catch the heroes flat-footed without using surprise in some fashion?

I'd like some sort of initiative bonus that goes up with level, so that it plays no real role in encounters between the PCs and enemies roughly on par with them, but the PCs tend to get the jump on Hordes of Minions (and be left in the dust by foes more experienced than they are). But I'm not sure what to tie it to. Directly to level? It does seem as though some classes should get it faster than others. BAB? Possibly, depending on how large the bonus is, but should the fighter really react faster than the rogue? Base Reflex bonus? I'm not sure.

Any suggestions? Including 'This is a really bad idea, because....' ?

 

[Thia Halmades]

"If you have 4 or more levels on your target, your combat experience is taken into effect; gain a +2 circumstance modifier on initiative rolls." -- Full text below.

Other than the above, any complicated changes to the initiative system would be a really bad idea, because... while the system isn't great, it also isn't broken. Any adjustment would unnecessarily complicate it. What we're establishing is who goes first, i.e., who gets the drop. Should the Rogue be fastest? The Fighter is best trained, but the Barbarian is moving on pure instinct! Surely a Barbarian shouldn't get caught with his bear skin down. There are various abilities and feats which directly affect initiative, but I'm inclined to agree that it is one of the most important elements of a fight, and lacks any possible 'punch' or drama that reflects how people deal with combat on the whole. However, fixing it (and I tried fixing it) just complicates things that much more.

So, first. If you use a BAB system, then the favored classes are those with the best progression (or MOBs, highest HD). This would pretty much pooch the Rogue's need to go first. We don't want to do that.

Second. Intelligence should play a factor, absolutely. So we ... take an average? More math. And, a lot of standard monsters aren't all that bright. You want the creature to have the advantage of twitch reflexes and getting there first; you want the PCs to be afraid of getting nailed to the wall. What d20 does very well is excise as much math as possible, leaving you with basic addition and subtraction. Recalcing a single PCs init would be easy, absolutely, but not necessarily fair. Your wizard (with their amazing high INT & solid DEX) would be beating your Rogue, or at least coming close, before unloading a spell at a flat-footed MOB. Again, no dice.

If you're concerned about advanced PCs dealing with mooks, you're right. The mooks shouldn't get the drop, which is why with good Listen & Spot checks you could certainly have your PCs get into a surprise round position, or, better, give them a circumstance modifier to initiative.

So I'll go with the Golden Rule and swiftly add two. As simple as it seems, the extra 10% chance gained from the +2 will swing a lot of borderline initiative rolls. Otherwise, I would suggest sticking with either Blooded or Improved Initiative.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[Lead Luteist]

Second. Intelligence should play a factor, absolutely.

Intelligence??? I was thinking more along the lines of awareness and instinct (i.e. Wisdom)

 

[robjh]

So you're talking about changing initiative relative to other party members? The opponents should be roughly balanced, so they'd get the same sort of initiative bonuses and it would cancel out. I'm not really thrilled about mods. to init. due to combat experience. But I do think certain classes should have more capability with regard to changing initiative. I.e. perhaps fighters should have more initiative changing options than just holding for an opponent to act.

 

[Nyaricus]

[start=threadsteal] i also think that init should be based off of Int (or perhaps Wis, as Lead Luteist mentioned). I dunno, but Dex doesnt fit for your total reaction in combat. Its not about how quick you are, but how quick you react (theres a big difference).[/end=threadsteal]

anyways, as for the original idea for this thread, of scaling init, i dont think that that is too important. the combat system as is is very non-realistic. Archers can not fire as many arrows a minute as D&D Archers can, and para-phrasing one of the Sigs on En World says (sorry, foget the screen name) when does a gaem become unrealistic? when a 20' lizard with wings breathes fire on your fighter, and all you do is subtact the appropriate amount of hitpoints, its kinda odd that you dont act like you are . . . i dunno, on fire, or something . . .

i dont think that this is too necessary, but if someone can come up with a balanced system for this, i commend you, otherwise, i wouldnt touch init as it is (other than the ability tied to it)

 

[Nim]

anyways, as for the original idea for this thread, of scaling init, i dont think that that is too important. the combat system as is is very non-realistic. Archers can not fire as many arrows a minute as D&D Archers can

Funny you should mention that...

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=150338

 

[Nyaricus]

what's your point. i have posted in this thread already, although i stated in my post that i wasn't going to follow it through. i personally think that bow damage is okay as is. if you REALLY want me to look through the entire post for some hidden away comment about longbows and firing rates per minute, you may find yourself dissapointed. next time, simply quote, and then post a link. i am not going to waste (well, use up un-needed amounts thereof) my time.

i dont mean to sound harsh; but honestly > what is your point?

 

[Mortis]

So, I was thinking about initiative. And it seems...odd to me that while all classes gain in fighting ability (read: BAB) as they advance in level, initiative is based solely on Dexterity and a feat...

...I'd like some sort of initiative bonus that goes up with level,...

There are some OGL/d20 systems such as Mongoose's Conan that uses a character's base Reflex save as part of his Initiative modifier - I suppose you could use such as system as a house rule.

Regards,
Mortis

 

[Thia Halmades]

The reason I opted for any fix at all was because the question was one of scaling it; so fine. Once you're significantly higher level than your foe, you should get a bonus to initiative (borrowed from the 4 or higher Rogue rule for flanking, in case anyone is curious where I coughed up "4" from). That being said.

Your ability to contemplate your navel (WIS) is not so much a reflection on your ability to react (DEX) as is your ability to process data on the fly (INT). But that's IMHO, and shouldn't be taken as writ. In my post I said:

Originally posted by Thia Halmades
There are various abilities and feats which directly affect initiative, but I'm inclined to agree that it is one of the most important elements of a fight, and lacks any possible 'punch' or drama that reflects how people deal with combat on the whole. However, fixing it (and I tried fixing it) just complicates things that much more.

I'm specifically saying this is broken, and I'm specifically saying that trying to ramp it up makes it more complicated than it needs to be. So. Nyah. In regards to the REF save mod going to init? That's your ability to AVOID something; initiative is about getting INTO a fight. Yes, it's a semantic quibble, but one I'm willing to get behind.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[Nim]

In regards to the REF save mod going to init? That's your ability to AVOID something; initiative is about getting INTO a fight. Yes, it's a semantic quibble, but one I'm willing to get behind.

Matter of perspective, really. One COULD look at Reflex saves as being less about you skill at getting out of the way and more about your skill at reacting quickly enough to be ABLE to get out of the way.

When you make your Reflex save against a Fireball, you take half damage. But was it because you're really good at spotting cover, or because you know how to turn your body at just the right angle to take less damage, or because you had flattened yourself while the people around you were just starting to open their mouths to say 'We're so dead!' ? Could be any of those, really.