Scent and Darkvision vs Shadowdancer

[Pinotage]

Scent

But if a character was fighting an invisible attacker with improved invisiblity, all the attacker needs to do to hit is beat the concealment. This is the same whether the character has scent or not. So where is the benefit from scent?

 

[mikebr99]

But if a character was fighting an invisible attacker with improved invisiblity, all the attacker needs to do to hit is beat the concealment. This is the same whether the character has scent or not. So where is the benefit from scent?

Scent lets the guy know that the invisibile one is in that square... If the invisible guy hit you, then moved away quietly (and you don't have scent, or didn't hear him move)... you have know idea where he is... you could attack the square that the last attack came from, but of course he isn't there anymore.


Mike

 

[Nail]

But if a character was fighting an invisible attacker with improved invisiblity, all the attacker needs to do to hit is beat the concealment.

You're missing the key step here. Let's try again: How do you know, at the start, what square the invisible attacker is in?

Answer that, and then we can move on......

 

[Majere]

Best rewording I can think of for HiPs is this:

A character with Hide in plain sight always counts as unobserved for the purposes of making a hide check.
A character with Hide in plain sight counts as being concealed for the purposes of making a hied check whenever he is within 10feet of a shadow that is not their own.

If you take that as the wording of the skill, all because much much clearer

Scent allows you to pinpoint a square, the attacker woud still count as full concealment (-2 to hit 50% misschance)
Without scent you would have to geuss which square to attack. Assuming you geuss the right square the attacker still has full concealment (-2to hit 50% misschance)
In effect if someone is meleeing you scent improves your hit chance by 8 (because you are no longer geussing a sqaure at random but one about you)
If someone attacks you at range it is even more powerful.


Majere

 

[Gnimish88]

The ability description says almost nothing at all actually... certainly nothing about the mechanics of how this supernatural ability actually works. And I agree that if the SD was in the middle of a well lit room, but within 10' of some shadows... and the shadows came up and "took" him, it would freak everyone out... hey it's magic.
Invisibility gives you a +40 to your hide skill (+20 if moving)... did your GM also give you this with HiPS?

Mike

Nope, that would be crazy powerful. The main point is that once you have made your hide check, you are effectively invisible. However, you are not actually invisible so you don't get that bonus. A point on consistancy in application though.

 

[RigaMortus]

But a character without scent can tell which square the opponent is in. How else do you fight invisible opponents? Surely the fact that you can tell exactly where the opponent is should count for something? Even though scent would tell you when an invisible opponent came within 5 ft of you, you don't get any benefit by knowing that? It makes sense pointless apart from tracking. I'd expect at least negating some of the benedit an invisible attacker has, such as the +2 to hit. Negating the 'flat-footed' criteria might be a bit much.

It is not so easy to pinpoint someone that is invisible w/o scent. First off, they have to give themselves away some how. Make noise, cast a spell, etc. And even if they do make noise and you pinpoint their square, that doesn't mean they haven't moved from it. Scent lets you know exactly what square they are in, w/o having to make a roll for it, no matter if they move or not (provided they are still within sniffing range

 

[mikebr99]

Nope, that would be crazy powerful. The main point is that once you have made your hide check, you are effectively invisible. However, you are not actually invisible so you don't get that bonus. A point on consistancy in application though.

So... how exactly does the ability work for you or your GM? You said earlier that it uses the Invisibility mechanic... yet you are now saying it is less then... but by how much?

And seriously... if you are going to start out the thread by complaining about the topic... and quoting another similar thread... at least pick one you had some input in... the one you quoted, had 3 or 4 posts from you, and didn't have you really taking a stand more then saying what your GM's house rule was... and it was 4 pages long. You left that thread wanting Skip's response.

Mike

 

[allenw]

Best rewording I can think of for HiPs is this:

A character with Hide in plain sight always counts as unobserved for the purposes of making a hide check.
A character with Hide in plain sight counts as being concealed for the purposes of making a hied check whenever he is within 10feet of a shadow that is not their own.

If you take that as the wording of the skill, all because much much clearer

Scent allows you to pinpoint a square, the attacker woud still count as full concealment (-2 to hit 50% misschance)
Without scent you would have to geuss which square to attack. Assuming you geuss the right square the attacker still has full concealment (-2to hit 50% misschance)
Majere

I like the rewording, but: where are you getting the -2 to hit from? Unseen attackers get +2 to hit (and negate the target's Dex bonus), but attacking an unseen defender just gives you a 50% miss chance, not -2 to hit.

 

[Pinotage]

Thanks

Thanks for all the replies. I think I got all the answers I was after!

I forgot something I wanted to ask.

A 10th level character with Shadowdancer levels can easily get +30 or so to his Hide skill (Robe of Blending or similar). The way I'm reading it, this character when within 10 ft of a shadow, can full attack, then take a 5 ft step and hide as part of the move action. This can be repeated round after round after round. Hence, whenever there is enough shadow, the shadowdancer can in effect go invisibile at will since very few creatures or NPCs will ever beat those kind of hide checks with opposed spot rolls?

Obviously to counter it, you'd need to Fairie Fire or Light the Shadowdancer, but you still need to find him first within 5 ft of the spot he attacked you from.

That correct?

 

[Diirk]

A 5 ft step isn't a move action, I don't think I'd allow anyone to hide 'as part of a move action' on their 5 foot step. That being said they can just take their hide penalty at -20 and attempt to remain hidden while full attacking.. that way they get to sneak attack every attack, too !