Scent and Darkvision vs Shadowdancer

[Majere]

1) Shadowdancer bluffs an opponent with reach, succeeds at the bluff and tumbles through the space occupied by the creature avoiding AoOs, stopping just on the other side to hide in the creature's shadow.

The shadow dancer does not need to make a bluff check.
The bluff check is to make a distraction so that you count as unobserved, but because a shadowdancer can hide while observed this is not a necessary tactic for a shadowdancer.
Tumble check to avoide the AOO, and then a hide check (no penalty)


2) A hiding shadowdancer comes out of hiding to make a full attack and then attempts to hide once that is done.

The shadow dancer is "hiding while attack" You dont actually come out of hiding, you attempt to remain hidden while attack.
-20 penalty to hide check

3) Shadowdancer tumbles into the threatened area of a creature, hides while doing the tumble and then gives a fallen companion some form of healing potion while hidden thereby avoiding the AoO.

Hmm
Not strictly covered by the rules but, a simple action while hidden is normally -5 to your hide roll. You would have to rule 0 this but I would apply a -5 penalty for "hiding while handing a potion"
You still provoke an AOO while hiden/ivnvis by the RAW.
Again you may chose to Rule 0 that you cannot AOO someone you are unaware of, but the RAW state you still get the AOO.

Majere

 

[Majere]

This is called Sniping... and it allows one missile attack, and then an immediate move action to re-hide (@ -20 DC). And you have to have been hidden the round before.

There is no way to full attack while hiding.


Mike

No
Sniping is a seperate action.
Under the hide skill there are entries for hiding while performing other actions, on is attacking.

Majere

 

[Pinotage]

The shadow dancer does not need to make a bluff check.
The bluff check is to make a distraction so that you count as unobserved, but because a shadowdancer can hide while observed this is not a necessary tactic for a shadowdancer.
Tumble check to avoide the AOO, and then a hide check (no penalty)Majere

The bluff check is a feint to catch the creature flat-footed so you can get sneak attacks on all your attacks when coming out of hiding the next round rather than only on your first. If you choose to remain in hiding and take the -20 penalty as you suggest, then the outcome would be the same, I suppose.

Thanks for the comments on the other two as well.

 

[mikebr99]

No
Sniping is a seperate action.
Under the hide skill there are entries for hiding while performing other actions, on is attacking.

Majere

Would you care to post those rules? It doesn't seem to be in my books.


Mike

 

[mikebr99]

From Pinotage: 2) A hiding shadowdancer comes out of hiding to make a full attack and then attempts to hide once that is done.

The shadow dancer is "hiding while attack" You dont actually come out of hiding, you attempt to remain hidden while attack.
-20 penalty to hide check

Again, guys... Hiding is at least part of a move action. You get one std. action and one move action each turn.

One attack can only fill the std. action, not a full attack.

So, unless you are using the Imp. Invisibility Spell, there is no way to full attack from an unaware position.


Mike

 

[mikebr99]

The bluff check is a feint to catch the creature flat-footed so you can get sneak attacks on all your attacks when coming out of hiding the next round rather than only on your first. If you choose to remain in hiding and take the -20 penalty as you suggest, then the outcome would be the same, I suppose.

Thanks for the comments on the other two as well.

If you succeed in your Move Silently & Hide checks (At any point in the combat, not just the 1st round) and get up close to your target (for melee attacks), your 1st attack from a hidden position will, most likely be a sneak attack, unless there are some other reasons the target is immune.

And a feinted target does not = a flat-footed target.

And, please have a look at... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040217a, For a good read on "Sneak Attack".

Mike

 

[Majere]

Yay that it comes to this:

From the SRD:
"HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging."

You can hide while attacking,running or charging, this include full attacks therefore as a full attack is equivalent to a charge.

"You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide."

HiPS overcomes both these restrictions

"If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast."

If you have HiPS being observe does not stop you hiding, thus you do not need to make a bluff check to distract them.


"Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot."

If you have HiPS you can hide while observed, you dont need to use the sniping action.


"Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you."

See above

"Action: Usually none."

 

[HighlandsBear]

To use the hide skill you must normally have cover or concealment of some kind, and cannot be directly observed. SD HiPS: As long as you are within 10' of some sort of shadow, you can hide without cover or concealment, even while being directly observed. Period. End of statement. It doesn't say "you can hide without cover or concealment, even while being directly observed as long as the person observing you doens't have darkvision." Just without cover or concealment, and/or while being observed. Period.
The light rules and darkvision rules have no bearing on these abilities. None. Zero.

The HiPS rule only says that you don't need something to hide behind, not that you are actually granted solid cover to hide behind. And we get back to - what would a darkvision character that doesn't see shadows see? The normal vision character sees alot of shadows, but the darkvision character does not see any.


The only things that HiPS does it remove restrictions in which the hide skill can be used.

Yes, it specifically mentions one restriction it removes but never says anything about granting cover or invisibility to defeat darkvision. It says you don't need cover to hide while being observed.

The dwarf in your example would see a blank hallway. No 'mysterious' impenetrable dark spots, nothing. Just the hallway, minus the hiding person.

See that's just it - to be hidden from a darkvision character the HiPS character must be invisible because the darkvision user can see the whole room. To me thats an added feature being read into the ability.

*shrug* Rule 0: the DM is always right, even when he's wrong. It's your game, man. If you want everyone with darkvision to negate a shadowdancer's primary schtick, or a ranger's 13th and 17th level abilities, you're free to do so. Don't expext many shadowdancers or high level rangers in your games, though.

Well, there are so many reasons to have a high level ranger I am not the least bit worried on that count. And camoflauge is a different ability which does not require shadows to use. Its about blending in, and does not require any kind of darkness at all. The darkvision rule follows the rules on shadowy illumination and so has no bearing here. And the shadowdancer? You get +1 hp/lvl, HiPS, darkvision, a shadow companion who can walk through walls for you, and shadowjump 20' in just 4 levels. The cost? Three feats, none of them outright bad, a lot of skills I would take anyways, but 5 skill ranks in perform that are effectively a waste from a power standpoint. The cost of 2 less skills per level at 8th+ isn't much, so the real cost is +2d6 sneak attack and probably a rogue special. Looks balanced to me for 3 great special abilities plus the shade in select situations if you're sure its safe for him.

 

[Diirk]

Again, guys... Hiding is at least part of a move action. You get one std. action and one move action each turn.

One attack can only fill the std. action, not a full attack.

So, unless you are using the Imp. Invisibility Spell, there is no way to full attack from an unaware position.

I disagree. You are already hidden (ie spent part of a move action or whatnot in a previous round) thus the onus is now on the other person to spot you. You creep up and position yourself right, and he doesn't see you. So a new round starts and you don't need to re-hide because you're already hidden... so you full attack and with your great amount of practise at the art of hiding try to disguise where your attacks are coming from.. this is pretty hard so you have a sizeable penalty. But its NOT a new action, or even part of a move action in this circumstance.

If you attacked, then hid again as part of a move action you wouldn't take the -20 as you wouldn't be hiding as you attacked.. you'd be doing it after.

 

[mikebr99]

I'd first like to state that your post is hard to follow, and I'd like to suggest that you use the 'wrap QUOTE tags' button for all your SRD, or otherwise quotes. thanks.

Yay that it comes to this:

I agree...

From the SRD:
"HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging."

You can hide while attacking,running or charging, this include full attacks therefore as a full attack is equivalent to a charge.

This says nothing about full attacking, as a full attack leaves no move equiv. actions left in your turn in which to tak on the hide part of your turn. From SRD:

Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action.

"You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide."

HiPS overcomes both these restrictions

"If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast."

If you have HiPS being observe does not stop you hiding, thus you do not need to make a bluff check to distract them.


"Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot."

If you have HiPS you can hide while observed, you dont need to use the sniping action.

It's the movement required to fire a weapon that makes hiding during firing a weapon, hard (-20 DC), not the fact that the target is looking for you. If you make the adjusted DC during the turn in which you sniped, your target has no idea where the arrow came from, you never revealed your square at all. So HiPS doesn't help for Sniping.

"Action: Usually none."

Right... Normally, you make a hide check as part of movement, i.e. as part of your move equiv. action during your turn.


Mike