Scent and Darkvision vs Shadowdancer

[mikebr99]

So a new round starts and you don't need to re-hide because you're already hidden... so you full attack and with your great amount of practise at the art of hiding try to disguise where your attacks are coming from.. this is pretty hard so you have a sizeable penalty. But its NOT a new action, or even part of a move action in this circumstance.

To use the Hide skill, you have to at least tak it on to your move equiv. part of your turn. And if you are using the move equiv. part of your turn for anything... then there isn't enough time left to full attack.

If you attacked, then hid again as part of a move action you wouldn't take the -20 as you wouldn't be hiding as you attacked.. you'd be doing it after.

I agree... But you also wouldn't get to use SA... which is the real reason for attacking from an unaware position right?

Mike

 

[Sejs]

The HiPS rule only says that you don't need something to hide behind, not that you are actually granted solid cover to hide behind. And we get back to - what would a darkvision character that doesn't see shadows see? The normal vision character sees alot of shadows, but the darkvision character does not see any.

...not that you are actually granted solid cover to hide behind...
The HiPS rule only says that you don't need something to hide behind...

The darkvision character would see a hallway, without shadows, minus the person that is hidden from them. Hidden in plain sight as it were. And again, just because the person with darkvision can see thru the shadows, does not mean the shadows are not there.

Yes, it specifically mentions one restriction it removes but never says anything about granting cover or invisibility to defeat darkvision. It says you don't need cover to hide while being observed.

Three restrictions, actually (cover, concealment, observation), but anyway - you're right in that it doesn't grant cover (none is needed), or invisibility. Invisibility is a defined term; it is the effect of the Invisibility spell. The Invisibility spell grants you a bonus to your hide check, HiPS does not. If HiPS said that it makes you invisible, you would get +20 to your hide check if moving, +40 if standing still.


An aside: looking over darkvision, I'm not sure it lets you see thru all shadow. Looking around the room I'm in now, there are plenty of objects casting shadows that I can see thru just fine. Darkvision lets you see thru darkness that would otherwise obscure your vision.

 

[hong]

I agree... But you also wouldn't get to use SA... which is the real reason for attacking from an unaware position right?

You get to use SA on the _next_ round.

Cyclic initiative. Gotta love it.

 

[mikebr99]

An aside: looking over darkvision, I'm not sure it lets you see thru all shadow. Looking around the room I'm in now, there are plenty of objects casting shadows that I can see thru just fine. Darkvision lets you see thru darkness that would otherwise obscure your vision.

Shadow is just a lower level of darkness. Everyone has some degree of Darkvision.





And for everyone else... the person with darkvision DOES know where this ability is helping... it is noted as a black & white area in his field of view.


Mike

 

[mikebr99]

You get to use SA on the _next_ round.

Cyclic initiative. Gotta love it.

Sure, if you meet all the requirements... and your movement last round to get behind something (cover or concealment) still leaves you with a target.

And the HiPS'er could attack once, every other round, to get rid of the -20 DC.


Mike

 

[Abraxas]

Another SD and HiPS thread

A couple of things.

1) Hiding while Attacking - this thread has come to the same point of contention on this as the others. Does Hiding while Attacking mean a) Hiding while using an Attack or Full Attack action or b) Hiding in the same round that you make an attack.

If you believe a) is correct then you can make a full round of sneak attacks but suffer the -20 to your hide check or make a single sneak attack and hide as a move action at no penalty but possibly provoke an AoO. If you believe b) is correct you can only make a single sneak attack and then must use a move action to rehide, possibly provoking an AoO.

Hiding is normally part of movement - but not always part of movement. Those that believe b) above is correct seem to hold that movement or a move actionis always needed to hide. I don't.

2)HiPS vs Darkvision - Darkvision is black and white only. When a creature with DV looks at something in shadow what does he see? He sees it as a black and white image. Knowing this he would therefore perceive the shadow even though he can see through it. Shadows do exist for a creature with darkvision, they just don't stop them from seeing clearly in black and white.

The HiPS ability states you don't need anything to hide behind and you don't actually have to be in shadow - so how exactly does darkvision negate the ability to use HiPS?

Abilities like this aren't based on the perception of others - Analogy: If I cast protection from evil - and the insane chaotic evil cultist believes completely that he is good - it still works against him - even though he can't and doesn't perceive himself as evil.

 

[crater]

To use the hide skill you must normally have cover or concealment of some kind, and cannot be directly observed. SD HiPS: As long as you are within 10' of some sort of shadow, you can hide without cover or concealment, even while being directly observed. Period. End of statement.

Ooooh no its not!
There is a little extra bit on the end that people tend to ignore for convenience.

 

[Kemrain]

If I need to spend a Move action each round to remain hidden, regardless of what I'm doing, then I agree that I can only make one attack and remain hidden.
However, if it takes a move action to initiate a hide, and as long as I stay hidden (rolling anew each time I take a significant action or moving) I don't need to spend an action to do so, then I can take a full attack at -20 to hide, and get in a full round of sneak attacks if my target doesn't see me.

It's one or the other, and I'm inclined to see it as the other.

- Kemrain the Stealthy.

 

[mikebr99]

Hiding is normally part of movement - but not always part of movement. Those that believe b) above is correct seem to hold that movement or a move actionis always needed to hide. I don't.

Right... but the only time it isn't part of movement... is when it is a move equiv. action all on it's own (sniping, or melee once from an unaware spot). The hide skill cannot be accompanied with anything less then a move equiv. action. And this doesn't include a 5ft. step.

2)HiPS vs Darkvision - Darkvision is black and white only. When a creature with DV looks at something in shadow what does he see? He sees it as a black and white image. Knowing this he would therefore perceive the shadow even though he can see through it. Shadows do exist for a creature with darkvision, they just don't stop them from seeing clearly in black and white.

The HiPS ability states you don't need anything to hide behind and you don't actually have to be in shadow - so how exactly does darkvision negate the ability to use HiPS?

Abilities like this aren't based on the perception of others - Analogy: If I cast protection from evil - and the insane chaotic evil cultist believes completely that he is good - it still works against him - even though he can't and doesn't perceive himself as evil.

I don't have any problems with this...


Mike

 

[mikebr99]

If I need to spend a Move action each round to remain hidden, regardless of what I'm doing, then I agree that I can only make one attack and remain hidden.
However, if it takes a move action to initiate a hide, and as long as I stay hidden (rolling anew each time I take a significant action or moving) I don't need to spend an action to do so, then I can take a full attack at -20 to hide, and get in a full round of sneak attacks if my target doesn't see me.

It's one or the other, and I'm inclined to see it as the other.

- Kemrain the Stealthy.

I agree... Hide MUST be at least part of your move action... but what part of your turn is left after that? Seems like only a std. action remains. And in my books... you can strike once with a std. action.

If you are hidden (from last round), and threatening this round, and don't want to risk STAYING hidden... then your 1st attack would (most likely) be a SA... just like attacking while invisible. But at that point, you have announced yourself, and the rest of the attacks (due to a full-attack action) wouldn't be subject to SA (unless something else is making the target loose his DEX).


Mike