Scent and Darkvision vs Shadowdancer

[Majere]

Thanks for all the replies. I think I got all the answers I was after!

I forgot something I wanted to ask.

A 10th level character with Shadowdancer levels can easily get +30 or so to his Hide skill (Robe of Blending or similar). The way I'm reading it, this character when within 10 ft of a shadow, can full attack, then take a 5 ft step and hide as part of the move action. This can be repeated round after round after round. Hence, whenever there is enough shadow, the shadowdancer can in effect go invisibile at will since very few creatures or NPCs will ever beat those kind of hide checks with opposed spot rolls?

Obviously to counter it, you'd need to Fairie Fire or Light the Shadowdancer, but you still need to find him first within 5 ft of the spot he attacked you from.

That correct?

Not quite
To full attack and then hide the shadowdancer must hide while attacking
So in the instance you describe the shadowdancer would be taking -20 to his hide check.
Not that hard to spot now is he ?

Other tactics that would work include casting saomething like daylight ino the shadows so that the shadowdancer now has nowhere to hide.
If you know the guy can only have taken a 5'step, fireball the area ! He is in there somewhere !!
There are plent of options, but I have to say having playe a high level shadow dancer (Hide +38) Yes I do basically always hide even if I take -20 to do something else at the same time. ITs a really cool power, but you have to give up an awful lot to get it.

Majere

 

[Majere]

I like the rewording, but: where are you getting the -2 to hit from? Unseen attackers get +2 to hit (and negate the target's Dex bonus), but attacking an unseen defender just gives you a 50% miss chance, not -2 to hit.

I was from my mistake memories, so yeah the example ther ewas a little off.
Sorry

I do find however, if you word HiPS as I supggested, then basically everything becomes crystal clear.

Majere

 

[mikebr99]

Not quite
To full attack and then hide the shadowdancer must hide while attacking
So in the instance you describe the shadowdancer would be taking -20 to his hide check.

Majere

This is called Sniping... and it allows one missile attack, and then an immediate move action to re-hide (@ -20 DC). And you have to have been hidden the round before.

There is no way to full attack while hiding.


Mike

 

[crater]

What mikebr99 said.

 

[The Souljourner]

Except that right in the description of hide on pg 76 of the PHB it says "It's practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running, or charging."

Thus, indicating that if you were previously hidden, you can attack and stay hidden, but you then have a -20 to your hide check.

-The Souljourner

 

[Sejs]

With Darkvision, however, there are no shadows to begin with. The Shadowdancer isn't near a shadow because they don't exists to the person with Darkvision.

Incorrect. Just because someone with darkvision (like say a Shadowdancer of 2nd level or more) can see thru the shadows does not mean that they are not there.

A Shadowdancer's ability to Hide In Plain Sight has no dependancy on the person they are trying to hide from being able to percieve a shadow within 10' of the Shadowdancer. The shadow just has to be present.

Darkvision does absolutly nothing to stop a Shadowdancer from Hiding In Plain Sight. Darkvision does nothing to assist someone in locating a Shadowdancer who is Hiding In Plain Sight, it just means that the person with darkvision can observe the SD despite darkness - however, HiPS lets the SD hide even while being directly observed.

Scent would help to locate a HiPSing character the same way it would help to locate an invisible one. However, it generally takes either a few rounds or being very close to the hiding person to get a fix on 'em. The Improved Scent feat from Savage Species is of some help there, as it extends the pinpoint range out from 5' to 20'.

 

[mikebr99]

Except that right in the description of hide on pg 76 of the PHB it says "It's practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running, or charging."

Thus, indicating that if you were previously hidden, you can attack and stay hidden, but you then have a -20 to your hide check.

-The Souljourner

Who were you directing this to, Soujourner? Because I think I mentioned this differently above?

thanks...


Mike

 

[HighlandsBear]

- The ranger version just says he can hide while being observed.
- The shadowdancer version say this and that he can do it without anything to actually hide behind.
- Light rules state that you must be invisible or have cover to hide from a darkvision character.
- In the hide skill it says that you cannot hide if you are being observed, but if you get behind cover or make a distraction you can.

To me the HiPS rule is directed at the restriction of the hide rules which also uses the word observed. And since darkvision is not usually effected by shadows shouldn't the HiPS rule specifically mention that it has this added bonus feature for us to assume that it does? Would something that uses the hide skill and doesn't mention magical invisibility somehow be granted that power? Perhaps the shadows are magically made into solid cover, or a concealment that darkvision can't penetrate. Well in each of these cases, what does the darkvision character see then? Does HiPS somehow make the shadowdancer invisible and thus the darkvision character just sees a whole hallway? Or does he see a normal hallway and then one black spot of shadows he just can't see through? I don't require total realism but this is a stretch. The dwarf scratchs his head and says to himself: "I can see the whole room except that strange shadow to the side of me. I wonder where that crazy rogue could've gone? I guess I'll go get some Ale at the --- AAHHHGGG!" Could a person with see invisibility find the shadowdancer? If not then you are saying that its neither a magical invisibility or a mundane hide skill. That would require a new state that is neither hiding or invisible. This is nonsensical and since HiPS isn't clearly granted the power to escape darkvision I just wouldn't allow it.

 

[Sejs]

DMG, p195 Hide in Plain Sight (Su): a shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is withing 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

PHB, p48. Camoflage (Ex): A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.


To use the hide skill you must normally have cover or concealment of some kind, and cannot be directly observed. SD HiPS: As long as you are within 10' of some sort of shadow, you can hide without cover or concealment, even while being directly observed. Period. End of statement. It doesn't say "you can hide without cover or concealment, even while being directly observed as long as the person observing you doens't have darkvision." Just without cover or concealment, and/or while being observed. Period. The combination of a ranger's Camoflage and Hide in Plain Sight abilities recreate this as well, but trading the requirement for 'within 10' of some sort of shadow' for 'must be in natural terrain'. (plus it's an Ex, which is rather cool).

The light rules and darkvision rules have no bearing on these abilities. None. Zero. The only things that HiPS does it remove restrictions in which the hide skill can be used. Now for the blow-by-blow:

And since darkvision is not usually effected by shadows shouldn't the HiPS rule specifically mention that it has this added bonus feature for us to assume that it does?

Nope, no need to. Darkvision lets you see thru darkness, and thereby observe the SD/Ranger. But because if HiPS they can hide while being observed, so it doesn't matter.

Would something that uses the hide skill and doesn't mention magical invisibility somehow be granted that power?

Nope. Apples and Oranges. The Invisibility spell grants you a bonus to your hide skill (+20 if you're moving, +40 if you're not). Hide in Plain Sight does not. Any schlub can be unseen if made magically invisible. With HiPS you have to be a skilled hider on your own merrit or people will still see you. A 17th level ranger with 0 ranks in Hide can attempt to HiPS because of his abilities, but the chances are almost certain that anyone looking for him will spot him without difficulty.

Perhaps the shadows are magically made into solid cover, or a concealment that darkvision can't penetrate. Well in each of these cases, what does the darkvision character see then? Does HiPS somehow make the shadowdancer invisible and thus the darkvision character just sees a whole hallway? Or does he see a normal hallway and then one black spot of shadows he just can't see through? I don't require total realism but this is a stretch. The dwarf scratchs his head and says to himself: "I can see the whole room except that strange shadow to the side of me. I wonder where that crazy rogue could've gone? I guess I'll go get some Ale at the --- AAHHHGGG!"

The dwarf in your example would see a blank hallway. No 'mysterious' impenetrable dark spots, nothing. Just the hallway, minus the hiding person. Don't forget that a HiPSing person still makes noise if they move (a seperate Move Silently check), still give off scent, still vibrate the ground, you name it. The dwarf can guess where he thinks the person hiding may be, the exact same way he can with any other opponent he can't see.

Could a person with see invisibility find the shadowdancer?

That's a grey spot. HiPS is a Su ability for SD, but the See Invis spell description says "this spell does not reveal creatures who are simply hiding, concealed, or otherwise hard to see." I'd say rule this one as you see fit.

If not then you are saying that its neither a magical invisibility or a mundane hide skill. That would require a new state that is neither hiding or invisible.

It doesn't require a new state; it is the use of the hide skill (remove the appelation 'mundane', it's pointless) that has had some of the normal restrictions on what conditions must exist for its use removed via certain class abilities. Hide in Plain Sight is still the use of the Hide skill.

This is nonsensical and since HiPS isn't clearly granted the power to escape darkvision I just wouldn't allow it.

*shrug* Rule 0: the DM is always right, even when he's wrong. It's your game, man. If you want everyone with darkvision to negate a shadowdancer's primary schtick, or a ranger's 13th and 17th level abilities, you're free to do so. Don't expext many shadowdancers or high level rangers in your games, though.

 

[Pinotage]

Shadowdancer Hide Examples

Here are a few typical examples I've seen of shadowdancer hiding. I'd appreciate comments on whether that was possible within the shadowdancer's ability, and whether he would take a -20 penalty or not. Or, if someone could give me typical examples of what they do with their shadowdancer ability. All these are within 10 ft of a shadow.

1) Shadowdancer bluffs an opponent with reach, succeeds at the bluff and tumbles through the space occupied by the creature avoiding AoOs, stopping just on the other side to hide in the creature's shadow.

2) A hiding shadowdancer comes out of hiding to make a full attack and then attempts to hide once that is done.

3) Shadowdancer tumbles into the threatened area of a creature, hides while doing the tumble and then gives a fallen companion some form of healing potion while hidden thereby avoiding the AoO.

Thanks in advance, and apologies for dismally failing to get to grips with this ability.