Ralif Redhammer
Legend
You know, I take it back. I've worked the reference desk at a library. And even farther back, did my time at a convenience store. In real life, there truly are some weird people that say weird things.
Schools of Magic, Bardic Colleges, and What Those Terms Actually Mean
- Thread starter Aaron L
- Start date
MNblockhead
A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
I work in a profession at the interface of law and technology, I have players in my group who are engineers, and a number of players who were in the military. If each of us go upset whenever someone would use a term in a way that is technically incorrect we couldn't play together. To further add to that an expectation that players will use the term in the way it was used in the IRL time period that is roughly analogous to a fantasy game is really pushing it. I get annoyed with people misusing the word "clip" and have been the annoying gun nerd to argue the meaning of assault rifle, not to mention all the hollywood-created misconceptions about how firearms work. But I don't expect players who've never shot a firearm or haven't seen one outside of a movie to use the correct terminology. I'd sprain my eyes from hard eye rolling if a DM started lecturing me on my misuse of the term "college" in a fantasy game. Leave these arguments to the historical war gamers and SCA members.
If you are playing a RPG set in an actual historical setting and using the terms appropriate is part of the immersion, that's something entirely different. This could be an excellent way to use TTRPGs to help teach history and language in a more engaging way.
But in my D&D? It is up to me as the DM to communicate any setting expectations. I use "guilds", "colleges", "schools" in the way that the setting intends them to be used, not how they were used in real-world history. Even better, perhaps the "common" language meaning of these words differ a bit from realm to realm. That way players can envision their character's backstory in a way that they enjoy, which may involve a brick and mortar bardic college, only to learn that others use the word differently in other areas.
I mean that's the case in English from one country to the next.
My current main campaign is set in the Lost Lands setting. It contains brick and mortar colleges, universities, schools, conservatories, academies, and guildhalls. All are fine by me.
If you are playing a RPG set in an actual historical setting and using the terms appropriate is part of the immersion, that's something entirely different. This could be an excellent way to use TTRPGs to help teach history and language in a more engaging way.
But in my D&D? It is up to me as the DM to communicate any setting expectations. I use "guilds", "colleges", "schools" in the way that the setting intends them to be used, not how they were used in real-world history. Even better, perhaps the "common" language meaning of these words differ a bit from realm to realm. That way players can envision their character's backstory in a way that they enjoy, which may involve a brick and mortar bardic college, only to learn that others use the word differently in other areas.
I mean that's the case in English from one country to the next.
My current main campaign is set in the Lost Lands setting. It contains brick and mortar colleges, universities, schools, conservatories, academies, and guildhalls. All are fine by me.
"How many D&D players have actually read Michael Morcock to understand where the concept of Alignment comes from?"
Actually it was Poul Anderson - Moorcock took it from him!
But I agree with your rant. Gary Gygax was well read, but there has been plenty of official material from people quite stunningly ignorant. I slightly suspect this was more an issue in the 2e & 3e era when TSR and WoTC were publishing at an enormous rate and there was little or no editorial oversight. Also some authors may be good world builders but lack much foundation in history or mythology - I'd put Greenwood in that category.
Actually it was Poul Anderson - Moorcock took it from him!
But I agree with your rant. Gary Gygax was well read, but there has been plenty of official material from people quite stunningly ignorant. I slightly suspect this was more an issue in the 2e & 3e era when TSR and WoTC were publishing at an enormous rate and there was little or no editorial oversight. Also some authors may be good world builders but lack much foundation in history or mythology - I'd put Greenwood in that category.
Skyrim has a (useless) bardic college, along with a (useful) Wizards' college. I think if a setting has one, it may reasonably have the other.
I still think it's a reasonable complaint that authors don't understand the intent of the prior author they are referencing - that Gygax meant X by "Bardic College" and that "School of Magic" meant Y not Z.
As long as we're ranting about ignorance and misconceptions as they apply to the game, one of my biggest pet peeves is campaign settings that are more Steampunk than medieval. One of the fundamental aspects of the medieval mindset (in my opinion) is that people looked to the past and its wisdom for solutions to man's (and the other races', in D&D) problems. So much of today's D&D (I first noticed it with 3e) seems to be people and societies with modern mindsets that use magic in the place of modern technology to achieve similar goals to today's societies.
The medieval world was brutal and superstitious. Individuality was anathema for the most part. I have no problem with gamers and DMs loosening things up a bit for player enjoyment, but I have a big problem with placing modern people with modern sensibilities in a D&D world.
A couple of examples:
Tieflings. Cool idea (I have a Tiefling warlock character myself), but in a world where demons and devils are actively working to destroy or corrupt people, I can't imagine these characters NOT being killed on sight.
I was a player in a 1-shot where the tavern didn't allow smoking. I bit my tongue at the absurdity of it because I was so used to modern notions without any sort of thought about how it would work in a medieval world (How do they light the place at night? How do they cook food?). It turns out, that was a clue we were supposed to catch. We figured out the mystery regardless, but it would have been easier if I had felt free to question the absurdity of it. Since I'm used to this sort of thing being part of the game, I let it go.
Rant complete (but probably to be picked up at a later date/post)>.
The medieval world was brutal and superstitious. Individuality was anathema for the most part. I have no problem with gamers and DMs loosening things up a bit for player enjoyment, but I have a big problem with placing modern people with modern sensibilities in a D&D world.
A couple of examples:
Tieflings. Cool idea (I have a Tiefling warlock character myself), but in a world where demons and devils are actively working to destroy or corrupt people, I can't imagine these characters NOT being killed on sight.
I was a player in a 1-shot where the tavern didn't allow smoking. I bit my tongue at the absurdity of it because I was so used to modern notions without any sort of thought about how it would work in a medieval world (How do they light the place at night? How do they cook food?). It turns out, that was a clue we were supposed to catch. We figured out the mystery regardless, but it would have been easier if I had felt free to question the absurdity of it. Since I'm used to this sort of thing being part of the game, I let it go.
Rant complete (but probably to be picked up at a later date/post)>.
MNblockhead
A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Then don't buy that setting.
I can see being upset if you buy a setting that advertises itself as a gritty historical fiction game, only to find that the authors were ignorant and lazy regarding the history they are trying to simulate.
But if you choose to play in Eberron or even the Forgotten Realms, you shouldn't be upset over the creators not living up to historical accuracy they never claimed to be trying to obtain.
I don't see how any attempt to maintain any semblance of historical accuracy in a game like D&D that has magic, a large number of sentient species, and undead, higher beings, and even gods that many people in the world have experienced, often regularly.
As a GM it your responsibility to select, modify, and build the setting you will run your game in. If verisimilitude is your goal--great! Just let the players know that. But you need the right players. Either players who are really into the same periods of history and already have the necessary education, or those who are willing to do homework. Whether the players are already knowledgeable or eager to become knowledgeable, I suggest that the GM provide a Player's Guide or Gazetteer to give them the setting background that you expect them to play in. The Lost Lands does this (thought they most certainly are not trying to go for anything remotely historical).
Even then, if you take yourself and your campaign too seriously, you may find yourself challenged by players more knowledgeable about certain aspects of medieval life. Sure, you know how certain terms were used and how various trades organized themselves, but you didn't do your research on medieval farming and food preparation practices.
Requiring high levels of verisimilitude requires a high level of education in the real-life history and culture you are using as your setting. And this could be awesome, if the DM has patient attitude and eagerness to share and teach and entertain (rather then gloat, berate, and scoff). For example, there is "an expert on Scandinavian history and culture" in the Manhattan RPG, CCG, and Tabletop Group who runs D&D games that "take place in the historical periods of Viking Age Scandinavia." Here is how the games are advertised:
I also find the word choice interesting when it states: "This campaign is taught by an expert on Scandinavian history and culture and takes place in the historical periods of Viking Age Scandinavia" [emphasis mine].
Note the word "taught." Unless you are playing with a group of people with similar levels of expertise, be ready to teach.
And I would love to play in such a campaign. I really wanted to join a session of this guy's game. But I could never make my schedule work on my trips to New York.
Most of us, however, are not experts in the subjects we are trying to enforce. Instead, we are cherry picking certain points of contention based on pet peeves.
That's fine. Just let your players know and also let them know that there are other areas where your campaign will be playing fast and loose.
I'm not complaining that I've been deceived and bought a campaign setting that isn't medieval even though it is advertised as such, I just don't like that theses type of settings have become the norm.
I know, I'm a grumpy old man and simply complaining about other people having fun the "wrong" way.
GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
I know, I'm a grumpy old man and simply complaining about other people having fun the "wrong" way.
GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
If I play Forgotten Realms I want Ren Faire fantasy. I'd probably be upset if the adventure went all 'gritty medieval' on me. The 'Bardic Colleges are actual Universities' thing I saw yesterday really is in the 5e Sword Coast Adventurers' Guide, and it's a bit silly given that these are supposed to have been founded by the supposedly-secret Harpers, but the idea of Bard Universities per se doesn't clash with Ren Faire fantasy tropes.
OTOH 'setting drift' can be annoying. A setting can start off eg as gonzo swords & sorcery and get drifted to steampunk or Ren Faire or gritty - I'd rather later authors worked on keeping the initial tone. Example - early World of Greyhawk is fairly gonzo swords & sorcery in a quasi-medieval setting. Carl Sargent's post-Greyhawk Wars stuff made it much grittier & darker, which for me was a tonal clash.
This touches on something I realized a loooooong time ago. What you get out of any system (not just talking about games, but anything describes as a system) depends heavily on what you put into it.
Clarke's Third Law states any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. But equally true is this: any sufficiently dependable and inexpensive magic is indistinguishable from technology.
That means that the very magic that suffuses the structure of a medium to high magic RPG setting will perforce change the societies in which it operates. Most players (on either side of the screens) don’t start off thinking like this, but if they start examining the ramifications of what spells do and how common they are, they start to.
Example #1: why have torch or even gas style streetlights (depending on technology in your setting)- and a Lamplighter’s Guild when Continual Light is equivalent in lumens, is a first level spell that lasts until dispelled, uses no fuel, and is not a fire hazard? Given a few decades, no human settlement would be dark at night. A few more decades, and someone would make a flashlight analog more ergonomic than CL bullseye lantern.
Why? Realize that human beings are the key part of the equation. Because humans look at problems and try to solve them with the tools available, someone is going to look at what magic does and spin out ideas about what you might do with it. Look at any group of experienced gamers and you’ll find a host of ways they’ve applied magic like a tool: mills run on waterpower from a Decanter of Endless Water or using constructs or undead instead of livestock to turn the millstones pop up with alarming frequency.
Similarly, those humans must react sensibly to what magic does within the world around them. The medieval society feared war, fire and pestilence in ways we really don’t today. But if you look at RPG magic and critters, the challenges presented are more akin to what we face in the modern world.
Example #2: medieval fortifications had to deal mostly with threats from humans, ballistic artillery, undermining, disease, fire and supply lines. Those factors determined how and where they were built. But in a medium to high magic world as depicted in an RPG, how many threats can you name that actually FLY or create tunnels quickly and ignore or destroy walls completely? How many ways can people in the setting combat fire, disease, starvation and produce drinking water?
So why should game fortifications resemble medieval castles? If you think about it, in a medium to high magic world, they shouldn’t.
And if the ruling class isn’t building mountains of carved rock in strategic but somewhat inaccessible locales with all those taxes they’re collecting, what are they doing with it?
