Screw Nostalgia

[billd91]

My feeling on 5E is pretty much that it either needs to let me play an improved evolution of 4E, or it needs to provide a game that is as revolutionary compared to what came before as 4E was. I certainly don't expect that in core, but if there's a set of modules that can deliver either of those things, I might play it.

So, yeah, I'm about as anti-nostalgic as it gets. But it is definitely hard to figure out what's pure nostalgic, and what is essential to the kinds of games that people who like various editions of DnD like.

I would think that THAC0 and descending AC is pretty much pure nostalgia, since BAB and ascending AC can produce mechanically identical results. But others might find it essential to the old-school D&D "feel". And I may find loose, flavorful prose descriptions of the rules primarily nostalgic, and prefer 4E's clean, clear approach, but others find it essential to D&D.

I might think that Second Wind and other non-magical healing is great, and fully justified under "rule of cool", but obviously, not everyone agrees.

See, for me, I couldn't care less about innovation qua innovation. Revolutionary doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not I like the way the game plays and whether it achieves what I want it to achieve in the way it plays out. If a nice bit of innovation achieves that in a better way than the old way, that's fine (like switching from THAC0 to BAB). But if the older way does it just fine, I'm content with that.

For all of 4e's innovations, it didn't achieve what I wanted it to achieve better than previous iterations of D&D or PF. I thought it was decidedly worse at preserving the feel of D&D running through the other editions I've played than 3e and PF.

 

[Savage Wombat]

To refer to Mr. Plinkett's lovely review, the thing about the Star Trek reboot was that it was simultaneously a success and a failure, depending on what you looked at.

Star Trek was a wonderful success at creating a modern action movie with lots of good scenes and SFX, using characters we'd loved from the original. It was popular and accessible, and fun to watch.

However, some fans weren't down with that. Because ST:TOS was not, originally, a modern action movie. It was talky, and somewhat cerebral, and at least attempted to use a scientific rigor that was definitely ignored in the reboot.

In other words: yes, you can have a successful product with a "screw nostalgia" mindset, but it has to be really good at what it wants to be.

Take what advice you will from this.

 

[dkyle]

See, for me, I couldn't care less about innovation qua innovation. Revolutionary doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not I like the way the game plays and whether it achieves what I want it to achieve in the way it plays out.

Oh, I agree 100%.

The issue for me is that I don't like how pre-4E DnD plays out. Been there, done that, wasn't for me. The flaws (as I see them) are too fundamental for me to accept something like those editions, but just evolved a bit.

So for me, a new DnD either has to be an evolutionary improvement of 4E (the only DnD that I do like), or something revolutionary to DnD, since there are plenty of other RPGs that are radically different from DnD that I like. Of course, there are plenty of them that I don't like, as well, so simply being revolutionary doesn't mean I will play it; only that there's a chance that I might like it, if it plays in a way that I like.

And again, I'm not talking about 5E's Core; just what 5E has to offer me, with whatever modules it makes available. I'm quite certain that Core alone won't be the game for me.

 

[dkyle]

In other words: yes, you can have a successful product with a "screw nostalgia" mindset, but it has to be really good at what it wants to be.

Take what advice you will from this.

Also, better be sure there's a big, new market to draw in.

There's clearly a big market for big action movies, that wasn't necessarily the traditional Star Trek market.

Turns out, there's not that much of a market for 4E's style of RPG, that wasn't already a part of the traditional DnD market.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Nostalgia? I play 1e because it's the best D&D ruleset ever printed. I could care less about nostalgia.

 

[CleverNickName]

Just putting something in only for the sake of nostalgia will fail every time.

Not *every* time. The LotR movies did a spectacular job, were well-received at the box office, and appealed to a wide variety of fans both new and old.

Right or wrong, nostalgia is important. I don't think WotC can afford to ignore it (or worse, replace it with the "rule of cool.")

 

[Mouseferatu]

Nostalgia is absolutely not to be ignored. But it's also not to be dominant.

The list of factors the designers have to consider is sizable. It includes, but is not limited to, rule of cool, smoothness of game play, nostalgia, appeal to new gamers, ease of customization, etc.

Not a single one should be dominant, and not a single one can be ignored. It's all a balancing act, and anyone who expects them to omit--or focus on--any one of them is probably bound for disappointment.

D&DNext cannot be all things to all people. No game could. It probably can't even be all things to any given person. And it doesn't have to. What it has to do is be enough things to enough people. Not everything for everyone, but something for everyone.

 

[GX.Sigma]

There's a great quote from a Blizzard employee regarding their philosophy towards game design:

"Different is not better. Better is better."

By the same token, 'nostalgic' things aren't worse, unless they're actually worse. Sometimes they are just better because they are better.

 

[howandwhy99]

(for those who don't remember, Skill Challenges started as a last minute ad hoc to 4e because people demanded rigidly defined out-of-combat rollplaying rules).

Is there anywhere I can learn more about this point? Anything from a blog or designer tweets or Wizards article? I didn't know this.

 

[ArmoredSaint]

4e was the one where they screwed nostalgia and tried to innovate, and look what happened there.

This bears repeating because it cannot be understated.

Nostalgia and the appeal of classic D&D tradition and "feel" is a more powerful force than the people who hold the game's traditions in contempt want to admit...