Screw Nostalgia

Rather, the rule of cool should be applied first, followed by does it work with what we want to do (both are needed, not one over the other).
I will only comment to say that using the "rule of cool" to design a game is exactly what lead to the problems that 3e players (such as myself) had with 4e. The rule of cool--at least, in using the term derived from that awful wiki that I won't link to--demands AWESOME. AWESOME is awesome that self-consciously attempts to TAKE IT TO THE MAX. It disregards verisimilitude and reason in favor of being AWESOME. And AWESOME is not what a good portion of us want. We want heroes who do awesome things, not heroes who are AWESOME. We want mechanics to support our heroes doing awesome things, not heroes with AWESOME powers.

What's the difference between awesome and AWESOME?

Awesome is produced by the players as a side-effect of the rules. AWESOME is the rules themselves.

Awesome is when everyone is dying while the fighter is staring down a dragon's maw with 3 HP left, and he swings his sword and crits and brings it straight to -10. AWESOME is when the rogue uses his daily power to trick the bad guys into attacking themselves and it's supposed to be really awesome but then you realize that the rogue is just going to use the same power tomorrow and probably the next day and the day after that until he gets a new one, and by the third time you've seen it, you're feeling that it's not really that cool anymore.

No, I'm not interested in the "rule of cool." (Forgive me if this is too much of a derail.) Please, just give me a D&D system in which the math/game balance are not FUBAR. That's all I want out of 5e.
 

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Awesome is when everyone is dying while the fighter is staring down a dragon's maw with 3 HP left, and he swings his sword and crits and brings it straight to -10. AWESOME is when the rogue uses his daily power to trick the bad guys into attacking themselves and it's supposed to be really awesome but then you realize that the rogue is just going to use the same power tomorrow and probably the next day and the day after that until he gets a new one, and by the third time you've seen it, you're feeling that it's not really that cool anymore.
I suppose the fundamental disconnect here is that I see the former as an example of "the dice make me awesome" and the latter as an example of "my choices make me awesome".

The problem with the former is that nineteen out of twenty times (or so) the fighter doesn't kill the dragon, and next round, there's a 50-50 chance of a TPK. Yes, it's great when it happens, but these days, I don't play D&D often enough that I'm willing to suffer through hours of banal for that 5% chance of great. Dare I say that it's ... videogamey? It's essentially the same as the basic philosophy behind the "rare drop" that keeps you fighting the same monster again and again until the miniscule chance that the payoff happens comes up.

I think I would like the rules to allow me to choose when to be awesome, thank you. Perhaps the daily power mechanic might not be the best way to go about it, but at least it meant that player choice had more impact than before.

To cite an example from 3e, I was playing a cleric and during one fight in which we had agreed to a series of one-on-one duels with the BBEG, the BBEG defeated the party fighter handily and my character was the next to face him. Due to a series of power boosting feats, I managed to defeat him in my very first action with a single spell. Now, luck did play some part (I rolled quite well for one boosting check and the BBEG failed his saving throw), but I felt very good about the victory because it seemed that a lot of it was due to my having made good choices.

I think it would be great if, in 5e, any character (not just spellcasters) in a tight situation could choose to draw on extraordinary resources and not just roll dice and hope that the 5% chance of a critical comes up.
 

This bears repeating because it cannot be understated.

Nostalgia and the appeal of classic D&D tradition and "feel" is a more powerful force than the people who hold the game's traditions in contempt want to admit...

After my 3 years of DMing and playing 4e I gave it up...not because of a lack of feeling like D&D...but because it was a crappy system all around. To me 4e was the first edition to go backwards as far as fun is concerned. We already have a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition. We do not need to remake them...something different and "cool" not "AWESOME" would be appreciated.
 

I suppose the fundamental disconnect here is that I see the former as an example of "the dice make me awesome" and the latter as an example of "my choices make me awesome".
I understand the desire, and more or less agree in principle, but in practice... No. Choosing when to be awesome sounds like a diceless system to me.

The problem with the former is that nineteen out of twenty times (or so) the fighter doesn't kill the dragon, and next round, there's a 50-50 chance of a TPK. Yes, it's great when it happens, but these days, I don't play D&D often enough that I'm willing to suffer through hours of banal for that 5% chance of great.
It was a bad example all 'round. Crits vs powers isn't a fair comparison. Crits vs feats that trigger on a crit would be a better example. Getting the crucial critical hit in on the dragon at the last possible minute is no different in 3E and 4E.
With that said; B.T. wasn't drawing that comparison. He was defining two separate words, Awesome and AWESOME. The presence of the latter does not prevent the presence of the former. His point was that the latter is totally different to the former, and does not result in the same feelings of player excitement.

I think I would like the rules to allow me to choose when to be awesome, thank you.
My issue with this is that by being able to choose to that degree, it completely lacks the awesome feeling. Awesome mechanical effects don't generally make me feel awesome. Daily powers don't make me say 'wow that was cool'. Crits do make me say things like that.

To cite an example from 3e, I was playing a cleric and during one fight in which we had agreed to a series of one-on-one duels with the BBEG, the BBEG defeated the party fighter handily and my character was the next to face him. Due to a series of power boosting feats, I managed to defeat him in my very first action with a single spell. Now, luck did play some part (I rolled quite well for one boosting check and the BBEG failed his saving throw), but I felt very good about the victory because it seemed that a lot of it was due to my having made good choices.
Aside from the one hit knock out, there's nothing about that which differs from 4E. You built your character well (for that situation), you rolled well, the bad guy rolled badly = awesome moment.
On the other hand, say a 4E cleric had a power called 'defeat boss'. It's a daily power, it only works on BBEGs but it's a choice you get to make, not just a combination of dice rolls and situation. You'd get into the same battle, cast your defeat boss spell and win just the same. It'd be AWESOME, but completely lack any actual awesomeness.

I think it would be great if, in 5e, any character (not just spellcasters) in a tight situation could choose to draw on extraordinary resources and not just roll dice and hope that the 5% chance of a critical comes up.
I'm not against that in principle, but I don't see a good way of implementing it.

I think essentially what I'm saying is that mechanical AWESOMEness doesn't provide any actual awesome.

[edit] fixed stupid wording
 
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I suppose the fundamental disconnect here is that I see the former as an example of "the dice make me awesome" and the latter as an example of "my choices make me awesome".

The problem with the former is that nineteen out of twenty times (or so) the fighter doesn't kill the dragon, and next round, there's a 50-50 chance of a TPK. Yes, it's great when it happens, but these days, I don't play D&D often enough that I'm willing to suffer through hours of banal for that 5% chance of great. Dare I say that it's ... videogamey? It's essentially the same as the basic philosophy behind the "rare drop" that keeps you fighting the same monster again and again until the miniscule chance that the payoff happens comes up.

I think I would like the rules to allow me to choose when to be awesome, thank you. Perhaps the daily power mechanic might not be the best way to go about it, but at least it meant that player choice had more impact than before.

To cite an example from 3e, I was playing a cleric and during one fight in which we had agreed to a series of one-on-one duels with the BBEG, the BBEG defeated the party fighter handily and my character was the next to face him. Due to a series of power boosting feats, I managed to defeat him in my very first action with a single spell. Now, luck did play some part (I rolled quite well for one boosting check and the BBEG failed his saving throw), but I felt very good about the victory because it seemed that a lot of it was due to my having made good choices.

I think it would be great if, in 5e, any character (not just spellcasters) in a tight situation could choose to draw on extraordinary resources and not just roll dice and hope that the 5% chance of a critical comes up.
Yes, when you look at that red-scaled demon in the eye, grab your frost sword, and charge at him, you're looking at a good chance of death. The smart move is to escape, nurse your wounds, resurrect your party members, and try again. But the awesome move is to grit, bear it, and take that chance, because the price of awesome is the chance of failure.

Let me repeat in another way: the price of awesome is a challenge. If you eliminate the challenge, you're left with only success, and guaranteed success it not awesome. It is not awesome for Superman to catch an airplane. It is not awesome for Spider-Man to punch out a mugger. It is not awesome for the Hulk to throw a tank. Why? Because there's no risk of failure. It's not a feat for them to do something. It's nothing. It's like someone walking down the street.

Something that's awesome:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujAhQCUxTVQ"]figure skating[/ame]

(Yes, I picked something girly to prove my point.) The reason figure skating is awesome is because it's hard. It requires intense training, and there's a chance that Ksenia Makarova is going to fall while she's on the ice. If we learned that Makarova were cheating and had special ice skating boots that let her do all her tricks, she would go from awesome to not-awesome. (Though the boots themselves would be pretty awesome for different reasons.) Likewise, if Makarova entered an amateur ice skating competition, it would not be awesome if she took first place.

The principle behind letting you choose when to be awesome is the same. Once you get to decide "I'm going to be awesome this turn," (rather than "I'm going to try something awesome") you've gone from awesome to AWESOME. Let's go back to your cleric example where you one-rounded the BBEG. Suppose that we removed your chance of failure. Suppose clerics of a certain level automatically learned the spell Carnagecast Splattergore. When you cast that spell, your target explodes into a fine red mist, no save. So you cast it on the BBEG, and he dies. Is your character awesome? Well, he's really powerful, that's for sure. But is it really awesome? No. The BBEG had no chance against you. He couldn't win. You're like Superman punching out a hobo.

(We're still not at AWESOME yet, though. Keep reading.)

Let's go one step further. Let's say the DM lets you play a high-level wizard in a newbie campaign. Everyone goes to raid a kobold nest. You cast meteor swarm and burn it to the ground. Is that awesome? It's cool, but it's not awesome, especially when you summon a demon to clear out the next batch of kobolds and turn a third group to stone. That wizard is powerful, but he's not doing anything awesome. I am highly skeptical you'll go to your friends and say, "Oh, man, I was playing this D&D game and my level 20 wizard wasted these kobolds!" You're going to say, "Man, I played in this really stupid game where I was a high-level wizard and I killed some kobolds."

Why? Because there was no chance of failure. There was no challenge. There was no price attached to it.

But here's the key to all of this: you weren't AWESOME just yet. There's one final ingredient to fully transform "lame and predictable" into AWESOME. You need to add the "rule of cool," which is where this tirade initially started so many words ago. Rule of cool says, "It's awesome, I don't gotta 'splain :):):):)." Something needs to seriously strain willing suspension of disbelief to qualify as AWESOME. It has to defy in-character justifications for how it might function and exist solely to make the players feel big in the pants.

Before I go any further, let me be clear: that doesn't mean that you can't have decision points and options to help you be awesome. It doesn't mean that the fighter can't decide to use Brute Strike or Harrying Assault or Into the Fray to help him succeed. All of those can be explained from an in-character perspective without ridiculous rationalizations. Examples of AWESOME powers in 4e are Bloody Path, Own the Battlefield, and Come and Get It, but I'm going to pass over those because there is one particular mechanic in 4e that drives me up the wall more than any other.

Minions.

I hate minions. They're the epitome of AWESOME. They are a metagame construct designed to make the players feel awesome. You're mowing down hordes of enemies! The wizard's fireball incinerated five of them! The fighter just slaughtered three at once! You're awesome! But when you think about it, you're not awesome. You're fighting monsters that die in a single hit that do a marginal amount of damage...and you're supposed to feel awesome about killing them? You're supposed to feel like a badass for taking them down?

Congratulations! You killed a creature with 1 HP. You are AWESOME. (Bonus AWESOME if you killed that creature with an attack that always hits.)

That's not awesome. That's lame. That's pathetic. The game handed you victory and you're supposed to feel awesome about it? No. You can feel awesome when you've adventured and risked your life and earned enough levels to kill orcs in one hit. And even then, your character isn't going to be awesome if he sticks to killing 1 HD orcs all day.

So that's my tirade on the issue.
 
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I understand the desire, and more or less agree in principle, but in practice... No. Choosing when to be awesome sounds like a diceless system to me.
Okay, "choosing when to be awesome" was bad phrasing on my part. The more important idea is "my choices make me awesome".

It's not guaranteed success, like playing with loaded dice. "My choices make me awesome" is more like making use of character resources to shift the probabilities.

"My choices make me awesome" might go something along the lines of: "Okay, I'm going to use my You Never Give In When Your Back's To The Wall power to grant me some bonus hit points. My You're At Your Best When The Going Gets Tough feat grants me a bonus to attack rolls. If I hit, I'm going to activate my It's In The Blood, It's In The Will, It's In The Mighty Hands Of Steel daily and get a bonus to the damage roll."

Now, the player has done more than just rolled the dice and hoped for a critical. He's used character resources to shift the probabilities in his favor. He's more likely to drop the dragon in one blow and even if he doesn't, he might have bought himself ehough hit points for a second or a third chance.

It was a bad example all 'round. Crits vs powers isn't a fair comparison. Crits vs feats that trigger on a crit would be a better example. Getting the crucial critical hit in on the dragon at the last possible minute is no different in 3E and 4E.
Well, in the first place, it wasn't my comparision. I was merely explaining why I prefer recovering from a bad situation through the use of powers and character resources to recovering from a bad situation through luck.

With that said; B.T. wasn't drawing that comparison. He was defining two separate words, Awesome and AWESOME. The presence of the latter does not prevent the presence of the former. His point was that the latter is totally different to the former, and does not result in the same feelings of player excitement.
Then perhaps a better example to bring out the distinction could have been used.

My issue with this is that by being able to choose to that degree, it completely lacks the awesome feeling. Awesome mechanical effects don't generally make me feel awesome. Daily powers don't make me say 'wow that was cool'. Crits do make me say things like that.
It's funny, but I have a slightly different perspective. For me, it feels great when I roll a critical, but to me that's just the luck of the dice. I don't get a sense of accomplishment. For that matter, I don't get a sense of accomplishment from using a daily power, either. Choosing to use a daily power at the right time - now that gives me a sense of accomplishment.

Aside from the one hit knock out, there's nothing about that which differs from 4E. You built your character well (for that situation), you rolled well, the bad guy rolled badly = awesome moment.
On the other hand, say a 4E cleric had a power called 'defeat boss'. It's a daily power, it only works on BBEGs but it's a choice you get to make, not just a combination of dice rolls and situation. You'd get into the same battle, cast your defeat boss spell and win just the same. It'd be AWESOME, but completely lack any actual awesomeness.
Not to mention any actual game balance, which to me would be a bigger problem than the presence of absence of awesomeness.
 

Before I go any further, let me be clear: that doesn't mean that you can't have decision points and options to help you be awesome. It doesn't mean that the fighter can't decide to use Brute Strike or Harrying Assault or Into the Fray to help him succeed.
Well, we agree on this.

I hate minions. They're the epitome of AWESOME.
Frankly, if you're not the type of DM who would send 1-HD orcs against wizards with fireballs and fighters that they can only hit on a natural 20, then you shouldn't be using minions, anyway.

Minions are actually a step up from 1-HD orcs since they have a decent chance to hit the PCs and the PCs might actually miss them.
 

Third post, but I think something about the bold all-caps keeps bringing me back to this topic.

I think I can go along with the definition that succeeding when there is no challenge is not awesome.

However, barring the possibly straw man examples of obviously unbalanced abilities, nothing that has been raised so far seems to guarantee success.

Minions are supposed to be eliminated with one successful attack, or even automatically, with the right powers, but they are also supposed to be encountered in large enough numbers (or with non-minion allies) so that victory is still not guaranteed.

Powers that supposably lack verisimilitude and reason, if properly balanced, do not guarantee success.

Powers that have guaranteed effects (e.g. Effects or miss effects), if properly balanced, also do not guarantee overall success.

So, it seems to me that your basic point (without bold all-caps) is that you want powers to be balanced and more process-based instead of outcome-based?
 

Minions.

I hate minions. They're the epitome of AWESOME. They are a metagame construct designed to make the players feel awesome. You're mowing down hordes of enemies! The wizard's fireball incinerated five of them! The fighter just slaughtered three at once! You're awesome! But when you think about it, you're not awesome. You're fighting monsters that die in a single hit that do a marginal amount of damage...and you're supposed to feel awesome about killing them? You're supposed to feel like a badass for taking them down?

Congratulations! You killed a creature with 1 HP. You are AWESOME. (Bonus AWESOME if you killed that creature with an attack that always hits.)

That's not awesome. That's lame. That's pathetic. The game handed you victory and you're supposed to feel awesome about it? No. You can feel awesome when you've adventured and risked your life and earned enough levels to kill orcs in one hit. And even then, your character isn't going to be awesome if he sticks to killing 1 HD orcs all day.

So that's my tirade on the issue.

Mowing down minions can be awesome. What makes them not awesome is when DM's:

- Make it obvious that a certain creature is a minion right from the start.
- Don't use enough minions.
- Use minions that aren't high enough level.

Create an encounter with lots of minions to mow down, interspersed with a one or two normal monsters that look the same, and make them high enough level to hurt, and you've got some fun.

When a low level wizard fireballs a room full of goblins, the party should be relieved that the wizard is there, because the minions should be dangerous in numbers.

It's also awesome when you have encounters with minions as guards, and if the player characters don't sneak past them or take them out in one attack they raise an alarm. They work well in those roles.

Like an above poster said, 4e minions are better tools than what we had in earlier editions.

I do like the hints from WotC that "minions" in 5e will have more than one hit point though, and that the number of hit points will correspond to the minimum damage that a PC of that level should typically do. That way there is a little more tension when a player rolls low damage dice. And more importantly, you won't have that situation where the DM cuts off the player to save time "You don't need to roll, he's dead". Players hate that. Players want to roll damage dice.
 

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