scrying someone who may be dead

[Bad Paper]

if you scry someone you will know if they are alive or dead, if you make the assumption that the spell failing means they are dead

Can you clarify this? Not being bitchy, just a little eager. I am not making the assumption that failure = death. When this person was alive he probably had a Will save of about maybe +10, maybe higher. The DC for my scry in this particular instance is 20. I shoulda taken his ear as a trophy; then the DC would be 24.

The scry failed. Seven days in a row. The DM and I both do not know whether my PC would know the reason for failure. Naturally, he can Rule 0 this, but since he is my DM and I am his DM we strive for rules consistency. And, of course, I can drop the same situation on him.

 

[AuraSeer]

Your character does not know whether the target saved. Here's the text from the Magic Overview section of the SRD, under the Saving Throws heading:

Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

I've bolded the important part. Scry is an effect spell, so you do not know whether the subject saved or not.

If you want to know whether the opponent is alive, try casting nightmare. It has unlimited range just like scry does, but since it's a targeted spell you will know if the target saves against it.

 

[Nail]

True, Auraseer, but that's not actually the important bit.

If you scry someone, there are three possible effects:

• The person makes his save: since he makes his save, your spell can't scry him.
• The person fails his save: since he failed, your spell does scry him.
• The person is dead: the person is actually an object, so your spell can't target him.

I think it's reasonable to assume that a caster can determine if his spell is castable (that is, it can target something). (YMMV, obviously.) Note that not being able to target something is not at all the same as having the spell cast, then having the target make its save.

A fun gray area, to be sure!

 

[Scharlata]

Your character does not know whether the target saved. Here's the text from the Magic Overview section of the SRD, under the Saving Throws heading:

I've bolded the important part. Scry is an effect spell, so you do not know whether the subject saved or not.

If you want to know whether the opponent is alive, try casting nightmare. It has unlimited range just like scry does, but since it's a targeted spell you will know if the target saves against it.

Hi!

What the Caster Knows: When a spell has a target entry, the caster knows when the target makes a successful saving throw or not. The caster immediately senses when a target makes a successful saving throw and likewise knows if a target has failed a saving throw by virtue of not noticing a successful saving throw. When a spell can affect several targets at once, the caster notes each successful or failed saving throw. The caster does not sense successful or failed saving throws when a spell has an area or effect entry instead of a target entry. For magical effects that aren’t presented in the same format as a spell, refer to a similar spell to determine if the user can sense a successful or failed saving throw. For example, a supernatural or spell−like ability that works just like the charm monster spell is a targeted effect and the user knows when the target’s save succeeds or fails.

 

[Nail]

Huh. Hadn't noticed Skip made up some new Global House Rules.

 

[AuraSeer]

Nail, by the rules the caster gets no special information when he's picked an invalid target. I agree that would be reasonable, but nothing in the RAW says it works that way.

Come to think of it, there are even more possible results than I had thought of:

1. The spell is successful
2. The victim makes his saving throw
3. The victim's SR resists the spell
4. The victim is immune due to mind blank or a similar effect
5. The victim is in an antimagic field or some other non-scryable area
6. The spell fizzles because the victim is not a valid target (and is possibly dead)

Only the first result will give the caster any information on what happened. He knows the spell worked because he can see the scried vision. For a targeted spell, rthe caster will also be aware when a successful save happens. But if a spell fails for any other reason, the caster doesn't necessarily know why. (Skip's article doesn't change this-- AFAICT it just repeats the rules already in the book.)

I think I need to retract my earlier suggestion. Nightmare is only a useful tool here if the victim has no SR, and lacks access to protections like antimagic field or mind blank. Outside those limitations, it's hardly better than just casting scrying again.

A better solution would be to use commune or contact other plane to ask whether the victim is still alive. Those will still fizzle if the victim is alive and has mind blank running, but if that's the case you won't find any information about him no matter what you to.

 

[Nail]

Is there any RAW on what happens if you target something with a spell that can't be targeted? Like Magic Missile-ing a rope?

That is: is the spell cast? Does the caster know the -whatever- can't be targeted?

 

[Infiniti2000]

There's no explicity statement in RAW to the effect, no. IMO, if your spell fails, you know why it failed. If the opposite were true, then consider the ramifications. You wear armor and cast a fireball spell at an opponent with SR located in an AMF. If the spell fails, did it fail due to SR, the AMF, or your arcane spell failure chance? Do you find it a little unreasonable that a spellcaster could not tell why? If you agree that the spellcaster should be able to tell why, then the same reasoning applies to scrying. Just because it has unlimited range does not make the reasoning any less valid. The flavor aspects of 'seeing' the outcome of the spell (e.g. fizzle as you catch your finger on your armor, the spell bounce off the AMF, an invisible SR shield slough off the flames, etc.) should not impact your decision. Anyone could come up with flavor descriptions for determing the failure modes of scrying.

 

[AuraSeer]

Is there any RAW on what happens if you target something with a spell that can't be targeted? Like Magic Missile-ing a rope?

That is: is the spell cast? Does the caster know the -whatever- can't be targeted?

The RAW appear to be silent on this issue. Your magic missile is still expended, but the book doesn't specify whether you know that it fizzled.

 

[Nifft]

Is there any RAW on what happens if you target something with a spell that can't be targeted? Like Magic Missile-ing a rope?

That is: is the spell cast? Does the caster know the -whatever- can't be targeted?

Hmm, a new way of finding Mimics.

-- N