D&D 5E Second Wind: Yes or No?

[Balesir]

The whole threshold-in-the-middle concept to trigger good or bad effects.

OK - so, its use as a trigger, rather than the concept itself. Is that just as a trigger for things happening automatically, or as a precondition for use of specific abilities, too?

 

[Klaus]

It would work well if we had actual wounds, distinct from HP. So second wind could recover vigor, but not skin.

It's not necessarily recovering skin, just focusing to ignore the lost skin.

 

[Li Shenron]

OK - so, its use as a trigger, rather than the concept itself. Is that just as a trigger for things happening automatically, or as a precondition for use of specific abilities, too?

Both.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Given the current hp system it makes no sense to have a resource that restores hp. As better mathematicians than me have pointed out countless times, there is little difference between giving the healing ability and giving more hit points, except that the second wind (whatever you call it) is more complicated and introduces resource management. It's bad game design even before you start talking about the plausibility issues.

Per-day mechanics (or per-time) have their own set of problems with regards to balance, accessibility, and plausibility. They are marginally acceptable for explicitly magical abilities for legacy reasons, but absolutely do not belong anywhere else in any game for any reason. There are better ways to do things.

Given a completely different health system (or a different second wind effect), there might be something to work with, but otherwise it doesn't belong. Of course, we should be seeing some different health systems, but we haven't yet.

 

[Klaus]

Given the current hp system it makes no sense to have a resource that restores hp. As better mathematicians than me have pointed out countless times, there is little difference between giving the healing ability and giving more hit points, except that the second wind (whatever you call it) is more complicated and introduces resource management. It's bad game design even before you start talking about the plausibility issues.

Luckily, it's not all about the mathematics. IMHO, a "heroic comeback" ability (call it second wind, refocus, etc) gives the player the sense of "fighting back" the incoming "0 hp" threshold, giving a sense of control over one's own destiny, etc. It is good game design even before you start talking about the narrative possibilities.

 

[Manbearcat]

I think its rather trivial to note that it won't be in the basic game.

However, its inclusion in the standard, advanced (take your pick) version of the game is a fair stretch more than likely; lest they alienate a considerable portion of folks they're wanting to court for their product. Each PC having their own (modifiable) thematic repertoire of deployable resources to either reactively sustain them in combat or proactively prevent the ablation of their HP is pretty much mandatory for a certain style of high fantasy, heroic action. Without the ability to "get off the canvas" and back in the fight of your own will, shrug off a serious blow without flinching, or gracefully avoid a hail of arrows or dragon's breath, this play cannot be reproduced. They help to express the style and substance of your character's protagonism in the world and they reveal the table's genre (its logic and its color). Action resolution mechanics that thematically produce that are key. MOAR HPs also tell a story but they do not quite have the punch...nor are they as fun as they are tactically impotent (except at the metagame level) and they are relatively (but not completely) thematically neutral in terms of the character itself. They do, of course, tell you about the genre that you are playing.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Luckily, it's not all about the mathematics. IMHO, a "heroic comeback" ability (call it second wind, refocus, etc) gives the player the sense of "fighting back" the incoming "0 hp" threshold, giving a sense of control over one's own destiny, etc. It is good game design even before you start talking about the narrative possibilities.

It gives them that sense only if they don't realize the mathematical reality (i.e. that this healing is basically just more hit points). For a new player, maybe it has that effect, but it doesn't hold up to any real scrutiny.

If one wants bursts of heroic action, action points of some sort are much better suited to providing it.

 

[Dragoslav]

I definitely want it as an encounter resource, but I don't expect it to be included in the Basic or even Standard rules.

 

[the Jester]

If it was temp hp couldnt you use it before you were damaged and lift your hp above your normal limit to buff yourself? This would go against the recovery side of things implied in the term second wind.

I favor the idea of only being able to trigger it if you're at 1/2 hp or less (and I *really* hope we keep "bloodied" in the game!).

 

[Manbearcat]

It gives them that sense only if they don't realize the mathematical reality (i.e. that this healing is basically just more hit points). For a new player, maybe it has that effect, but it doesn't hold up to any real scrutiny.

I don't agree with this.

Hit Points:

1) Generally a strategic resource for pacing. It is only superficially tactically engaged at the metagame level (can my character engage this threat; monster, jumping off a cliff).
2) A thematically-neutral (in terms of character, not so in terms of overall genre) resource that just sits there...being HPs. Everyone has them as it is meant to pace the overall adventuring day or help PCs make strategic (metagame) decisions. It is not the same as a Fighter's saves in AD&D or a Rogue's Evasion in 3.x and beyond.

Second Wind and any of its derivations:

1) Universally a tactical resource for extra-HP pool encounter endurance. You don't make long term strategic decisions based off of it nor does the group nor the GM pace anything based off of its existence. It is an activatable resource through which you express that your PC is "made of sterner stuff than your average joe" and the style and timing with which he does it.
2) Its various incarnations will be thematically loaded. These are very different from one another tactically and thematically:

[sblock]

Originally posted by WotC
[h=1]Iron Heart Endurance
[/h]The pain of your injuries lets you clear your mind of all distractions, fortifying your fighting spirit.
Encounter

Psionic
Minor Action Personal
Requirement: You must be bloodied.
Effect: You gain temporary hit points equal to twice your Constitution modifier.

[h=1]Troublesome Aid of Caiphon
[/h]When an ally grants you the grace of renewed health, you leverage your knowledge of Caiphon’s healing lore to gain even greater advantage than was offered—but at what price?
Encounter

Arcane, Implement
Immediate Interrupt Ranged 10
Trigger: One ally in range grants you the use of a healing surge.
Effect: In addition to the normal number of hit points you regain, you regain a number of hit points equal to your healing surge value. However, until the end of the encounter, you die after failing your second, rather than third, death saving throw.


[h=1]Acererak's Apotheosis
[/h]You become a vision of death as you infuse your body with shadow—your flesh draws back to the bone, and fiery blue pinpricks burn in your now-empty eye sockets.
Daily

Arcane, Necromancy, Shadow
Minor Action Personal
Requirement: You must have at least one healing surge.
Effect: You lose a healing surge and gain temporary hit points equal to your healing surge value. Until the end of the encounter, you are undead, and you gain the following benefits.
* Darkvision
* Immunity to disease and poison
* Necrotic resistance equal to 10 + one-half your level

[h=1]Shooter’s Nemesis
[/h]The fact that your enemy is too cowardly to close to melee swells your confidence.
Daily

Healing, Martial
Immediate Interrupt Personal
Trigger: You are hit by a ranged attack
Effect: You spend a healing surge and regain additional hit points equal to twice your Wisdom modifier.


[h=1]Dimensional Dodge
[/h]As the enemy prepares to riddle you with arrows from afar, you vanish and reappear right next to it.

Daily

Arcane, Teleportation
Immediate Interrupt Personal
Trigger: An enemy within 20 squares of you hits you with a ranged attack.

Effect: You teleport adjacent to the enemy.


[h=1]Reflexive Dodge
[/h]As the attack explodes toward you, your reflexes allow you to remain one step ahead of it.
Encounter
Immediate Interrupt Personal
Trigger: An area or a close attack hits you
Effect: You make an Acrobatics check and reduce the damage you take from the triggering attack by half the check result. You then shift half your speed.


[h=1]Physician's Care
[/h]Your extensive training helps you get an ally back into the fight.

Encounter

Healing
Standard Action Melee 1
Target: You or one ally
Effect: The target can spend a healing surge.


[h=1]Inspiring Fortitude
[/h]Inspired by your resilience, your allies find the will to overcome challenges.
Daily
Standard Action Close burst 5
Requirement: Your second wind must be available for you to use
Target: Each ally in the burst
Effect: You use your second wind, and each target gains temporary hit points equal to 10 + your Constitution modifier.

[/sblock]

If one wants bursts of heroic action, action points of some sort are much better suited to providing it.

Are you alright with action points providing defensive effects; healing, mitigation, temporary HPs, defense bonuses, outright avoidance of attacks? Or do you expect them to just be offensive surges?