Seeking a little advice

[Dirty Magurdy]

In the Rules Compendium, under Underwater combat, (and in the SRD) it states:

Yea, I read that in the DMG and I read through the PHB's entry on verbal components of spells. Neither gives a true or direct clarification about how being submerged in water might affect verbalizing words of magic to form spells. Generally I believe that if a rule doesn't specifically say something can't be done then I'll assume it can be done - however, as the situation came up at the end of last game session and I didn't want to spend the time seeking a certain answer in the book I ruled on the spot that you can cast with the 20% chance of spell failure (I allowed the cleric to ignore the spell failue as he had water breathing on himself via a potion). I told the group I'd look into it more and make a more final ruling for next session and that's where you all come in. Thanks for the response.

Is the idea to make an ice raft for a few rounds? That 1/round duration for the sphere ice is fairly limiting.

Actually Voadam, it's a rather small body of water they are in, an underground resevoir roughly 80 feetwide and 120 feet long. My question about the "walls" of the depressed area of lowered water was just my thinking ahead because I know the 2 spells will be used in conjunction and I wanted to make sure I handled it properly - A cavern hag (from the Scarred lands setting) is waiting for the group to surface in this body of water via an underwater tunnel. She has wicked range on her blindsight and has therefore layered the air of the cavern with gas spells and sleet storm. She is assuming that the group might have water breathing capabilities and just might wait below the water's surface for her spells to wear off, hence lowering the water so she can target them with spells. Which brings up another question... Will these gaseous spells such as stinking cloud fill in the area of space that was once occupied with water once the water level is lowered?

Oh dear. Yet another attempt to apply 'realism' to D&D.

Realism was never a factor. I just want to get the rule right so I can present it to my players for next session's extended combat which will take place primarily in water.

I like the idea of a concentration check, probably makes more sense than the 20%. If the choice comes down to these two I'll probably run it by my players for their input.

Thanks alot everyone.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

I might go with something like this, accounting for the component types separately:

- Spells with V components have 80% fail chance, and caster starts rolling to drown on next round. Creatures with aquatic subtype or water breathing ignore this fail chance.

- spells with S component have 10% fail chance, and (as per the Swim skill rules) if the spell take a standard action, caster loses a round of breath-holding time. Creatures with aquatic subtype, a swim speed, or freedom of movement ignore this fail chance.

- Spells with V and S components add the applicable fail chances above, to a max of 90% fail chance.

 

[Jhaelen]

For balance reasons? Melee combat is nerfed quite heavily, and ranged combat is near impossible. No manner of 3e balance requires nerfing physical combat, but leaving spellcasting unchanged.

Well, spellcasting pcs will probably disagree with you

I know from personal experience that even high level parties with full access to water breathing and freedom of movement are extremely reluctant to enter underwater areas. There is zero reason to make it even less appealing, unless you want to discourage them from ever entering underwater areas. But then you don't need any underwater rules at all, right?

The basic question is: Was the OP asking for rules, house-rules, or just general advice?
He now received answers from each of these categories.

 

[Voadam]

Actually Voadam, it's a rather small body of water they are in, an underground resevoir roughly 80 feetwide and 120 feet long. My question about the "walls" of the depressed area of lowered water was just my thinking ahead because I know the 2 spells will be used in conjunction and I wanted to make sure I handled it properly - A cavern hag (from the Scarred lands setting) is waiting for the group to surface in this body of water via an underwater tunnel. She has wicked range on her blindsight and has therefore layered the air of the cavern with gas spells and sleet storm. She is assuming that the group might have water breathing capabilities and just might wait below the water's surface for her spells to wear off, hence lowering the water so she can target them with spells. Which brings up another question... Will these gaseous spells such as stinking cloud fill in the area of space that was once occupied with water once the water level is lowered?

Stinking Cloud
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates; see text
Spell Resistance: No

Stinking cloud creates a bank of fog like that created by fog cloud, except that the vapors are nauseating. Living creatures in the cloud become nauseated. This condition lasts as long as the creature is in the cloud and for 1d4+1 rounds after it leaves. (Roll separately for each nauseated character.) Any creature that succeeds on its save but remains in the cloud must continue to save each round on your turn.

Stinking cloud can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent stinking cloud dispersed by wind reforms in 10 minutes.

Material Component
A rotten egg or several skunk cabbage leaves.

and

Fog Cloud
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 2, Water 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft. level)
Effect: Fog spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

A bank of fog billows out from the point you designate. The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker can’t use sight to locate the target).

A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the fog in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the fog in 1 round.

The spell does not function underwater.

I'd think the maigc bank of fog would settle and lower down to the new water surface level.

Check out cloudkill as well for further discussion of magic fog could like fog banks:

This spell generates a bank of fog, similar to a fog cloud, except that its vapors are yellowish green and poisonous.
. . .
Because the vapors are heavier than air, they sink to the lowest level of the land, even pouring down den or sinkhole openings. It cannot penetrate liquids, nor can it be cast underwater.

 

[Physiker]

I would say that your are deaf while underwater, so a spell failure of 20% should apply to every spell with verbal component.

 

[Jhaelen]

I would say that your are deaf while underwater, so a spell failure of 20% should apply to every spell with verbal component.

Have you ever _been_ underwater? You can actually hear better because the sound waves carry farther (or something like that - ask a 'Physiker' ).

 

[Dross]

If the PCs can't breathe underwater:
Under the suffocation rules in the RC a standard action reduces the time you can hold your breathe by 1 round.

Casting a spell with verbal requirements could also reduce the time by 1 round. There is nothing saying that casting a spell requires speaking a paragraph or even full sentence. (I remember seeing that suggestion/rule somewhere, but for the life of me I can't remember where)

 

[aboyd]

This:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-rules/125646-underwater-spellcasting.html

...has lots of magic items to enable casting under water. And this:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-rules/3643-underwater-casting.html

...has an interesting discussion of whether gills enable casting.

For me, the real crux is this spell:

Deep Breath

The text of it (which isn't available on that site) says that it works as an immediate action so that you can utter the verbal component before going under water. That implies that going under water would hinder the verbal component. Also, in the first link, there is a magical item (the Sirenes item) that says it removes the problems with casting under water... implying that there ARE problems casting under water.

For me, there isn't a clear rule in the core books because it's assumed that the DM applies logic to make a ruling. For example, if you are gagged, spells with verbal components won't work. The rules may not explicitly cover that particular example, but the general idea that hindering your voice will hinder a verbal component should apply. And if your hands are bound, then somatic components won't work. And if an enemy sunders or disarms your spell component pouch, material components won't work. All these examples may or may not be explicitly covered in the books, but a DM will nonetheless figure it out.

My ruling in my own game has been that there are problems casting under water until you can breathe under water somehow. Gills will work -- but you must still have a normal mouth & vocal cords to enable the casting (you can't turn into a fish and expect to get off the verbal component). Once you satisfy those conditions, the player may proceed to cast. The normal DMG rules about fire spells under water and such all apply.

 

[Physiker]

Have you ever _been_ underwater? You can actually hear better because the sound waves carry farther (or something like that - ask a 'Physiker' ).

Hm, I am a Physiker (don't like the english word for it), and since the sound velocity of water is much higher than in air, you can not understand what is beeing said.
At least not that what other people say, perhaps you have a little chance to hear yourself because you know what you say, but if it's a complicate sentence, where the propper words are important you propably fail to say them correctly.
The human hearing device is not made to hear under water.

 

[Elethiomel]

Hm, I am a Physiker (don't like the english word for it), and since the sound velocity of water is much higher than in air, you can not understand what is beeing said.

This is incorrect. The sound velocity of water being higher than air has no impact on sound waveforms, and as such does not impact how you hear things. The reasons you have problems hearing things underwater are different, namely;
1) Water compression due to sound wave propagation is not linear with the pressure exerted, thus various harmonics are generated. This "muddles" the sound.
2) The difference between the density of water and the density of air makes water interact differently with our eardrums. I haven't read any papers on this, but I would assume that this further muddles sound.

At least not that what other people say, perhaps you have a little chance to hear yourself because you know what you say, but if it's a complicate sentence, where the propper words are important you propably fail to say them correctly.

Your own voice is mostly transmitted through your bone structure to your ear, water does not interfere here. It will add the previously mentioned harmonics, but you should be able to hear your own voice reasonably well underwater.

Bubbles create some audio noise, and of course speaking quickly expends air, but my own tentative experiments (no, I didn't conduct them for the benefit of this thread ) tell me that if careful, I can speak 1 sentence underwater without too much problem on the air in my lungs, and hear myself reasonably well.


Regardless of all this, DnD has magic that allows one to breathe and move freely underwater. Though not explicitly stated (like the rules for problems with spellcasting underwater are not explicitly stated), I would rule that any magic or item that allows you to breathe underwater (and not deprive you of your voice) also allows you to fulfil verbal components underwater, and likewise with any magic that allows for free movement underwater (for instance, any magic that grants you a swim speed) would allow you to fulfil somatic components underwater. I wouldn't bother with rules for contaminating spell components.