Sell me on creating new d20 fantasy PDFs . . .

Jürgen Hubert said:
I'm wondering... are all d20 fantasy products suffer from reduced sales the same way? Or is there some sort of variety depending on the specific product category?

In other words, is there a difference between (say) d20 settings, d20 adventures, and new d20 rules material or "genre books" (such as generic books on horror, dungeons, cities, oceans or whatever)?

I'm asking because I am currently pondering publishing a setting or two, and I'd like to know how the market works for those...

My understanding is, rules sell, settings and adventures generally don't - with the understanding that nothing is selling right now.

Honestly, I'm still on the lookout for good rulesets. And I'd buy a nice, well-presented setting - layout is VERY important to me. Two inch margins suck.

But by and large, the stuff I see now is weird niche products, which I don't need and won't buy. I don't need to spend money on adventure hooks, 50 recipes for stirges, or A Brand New Revised (5th Ed.) Skillz Syztem.

Too many dwarf sourcebooks? Don't care. Gimme a good, solid, interesting, edited, attractive, compatible with core, utilizes and enhances existing OGC, 64 page or more book on dwarves, and I'll buy it.
 
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philreed said:
You've just described the d20 market and exactly why 4e is coming faster than many people want to admit.

I think I'm also describing the short pdf market, which is no longer novel and innovative, but you can take it however you want.

Looking at the larger d20 market, I wonder if part of many publishers' problem isn't a failure to create, um, a "backdrop" for their products. If you create truly generic products, without any relationship (not interdependance) between them, then you lose the opportunity to give some added value to the product and there's no difference between Mike's Book of Spells and Bo's Book of Spells

I'm NOT saying create a setting product. Settings don't sell, that's the common wisdom. But all the hooks in your Dozen series - do they add up a single setting? If not, why not?

The absolute best example of this are the monster books EN World did a few months back. Generic monsters, easily exportable, but set in a consistent backdrop that, IMO, add 100% to the value. I bought at least two just to find out more about the background.

In short, I think a consistent, low-key background in accessories can be a good way to increase consumer interest, link mechanically unrelated products, and potentially create a sort of "series/collectible" mentality in the customer, boosting sales among linked products.

The fact is, the audience is still ought there. People are still playing D&D and d20. I don't believe more people are playing d20 Modern or M&M than D&D; those markets are just younger than core d20. They'll bust too. Publishers that look at this and say "this is it, it's all over" ought to get out. But some, with foresight and planning, will hang on and make it work.

Cheers
Nell.
 

I think its just the oversaturation of the market. There's far more product than there is demand. I'm not even sure if demand has weined any. Say Player A has so 50 bucks in his budet to buy RPGs a month. For the first couple years, supplments by wotc (the official guy) cost 20 bucks and there were only 10 to 15 companies selling supplements. Now wotc is selling supplements for 40 bucks leaving hte other companies to fight over the other 10 dollars. No more is it just 10 to 15 companies but 25 to 40 companies now. Perhaps the next go around WOTC will only issue out so many licencses for companies to insure healthy competition and growth of the industry.
 

Phil,

I have a huge collection of game material built up over a large period of years. It is all printed. I have never purchased a PDF because the PDF format seemed to me too ephemeral and I had no reasonable way to permanently store the PDF’s neatly. Two factors have recently changed this dynamic and two factors have arisen to complicate matters.

First, the good news.

With the decline in the number of new d20 print releases, I have started to consider PDF’s as a place to look for continuing d20 support. The notion that the d20 market is tapped is nonsense. The obvious d20 products have been done, and done, and in some cases, done yet again. The low hanging fruit is gone. That d20 publishers seem incapable in many cases of imagining what they can publish beyond the lowing hanging fruit does not mean the market it tapped. It seems too often that the imaginations of the d20 publishers are tapped, or perhaps that they never had much imagination to begin with beyond the standard D&D tropes. Some. By no means all. In any event, myself and those of my acquaintance, bemoaning the lower number of print releases, have started to give PDFs a serious look for the first time.

Coupled with this, pen or flash drives present themselves as a cheap (and becoming cheaper) way to store large files independent of a hard drive on a machine that will be obsolete in less than 5 years from the date it is purchased and which will need to be replaced.

In combination, at least to myself and those of my acquaintance, PDFs have comparatively recently come under serious consideration for the first time.

Now, the bad news.

In my initial forays looking into PDFs, I have been overwhelmed by the sheer number of them and the realization that they are not only not cataloged anywhere but that it is very difficult to learn much about any given title. There is then a steep learning curve to get to the point where you feel confident that you are a knowledgeable buyer. I still have not found or seen a good way to address this systemic need for organization and information. The Paizo site is at least clean and uncluttered in its presentation, which is a tremendous plus over some sites.

Now, the worst news.

I’ll put the date to your allusion. 4th Edition will be released in 2008. We are in the last days of 3x with no guarantee that 4e will be substantially backwards compatible or open licensed, initial indications seem to say not. Whatever the specifics, the unknown creates uncertainty that affects willingness to commit to more product, both among publishers and purchasers. Oddly, while I have no intention of switching from 3x, I still hesitate. Of course, I said the same about going from 2e to 3x but I did eventually switch. If such experience is common, 3x publishers may find no one to buy their 3x products after 4e, even if 4e is closed and all they can work with is the OGL. If everyone chases the new 4e hotness, 3x OGL will go begging.

Perhaps, this last suggests a strategy you might consider. If you are going to stay the d20/OGL course, you need to make your preparations. Mongoose has their Conan etc. Malhavoc has their Arcana and Iron Heroes lines, etc. etc. - branded d20 identities not dependent on being “general D&D support.” You might consider how a PDF publisher could apply the theory to their d20/OGL work. (I think Adamant Entertainment, from what I have seen, is already down this road - supporting Northern Crown and Skull & Bones etc. - though theirs is not necessarily the only strategy, as one could look for ones own identity independent of any other publisher, at least in theory. A unique property and identity, a “mini-Mongoose” or “mini-Malhavoc” approach?)

At least in the short term, an authoritative Guide to Buying PDFs would help neophytes such as myself - what is available, for how much and where and what is it exactly? You would likely not altruistically pursue such a thing but partnered with other PDF publishers. I know of Adamant Entertainment’s PDF business largely through word of mouth and ads in the back of print products. I know Ronin Arts in largely similar fashion - word of mouth and a few printed Ronin Arts products I have seen. Everybody else in the PDF world is, to me, largely a cipher and I am difficulty understanding what is out there. I think there is a need for an organized and clear PDF resource to help people get into PDFs with some feeling of confidence.

In all events, I think a market exits or can continue to exist, how to approach it, under the circumstances, being the actual issue. Maybe it cannot be approached in any reasonable way. My uninformed sense of Adamant suggests to me is that there is likely a way, if there is a will.

My two cents (or less). And best fortune!
 

I've just had a look at your collection, Phil, and it's impressive. You've done some good stuff over the years. It's been mentioned before, but with the vast quantity of stuff it can be quite daunting to look through your collection to decide on what to buy. Many would probably point pdf buyers to Ronin Arts, but an portion of those are likely turned off by the quantity of the material and inability to make a decision on what to buy. Maybe it's worth trimming the catalogue? Or combining items together? Even for people who know your stuff, it can be difficult to find something in 500 items. Just a thought.

Pinotage
 

OK I only read the first page of posts so if this has been mentioned please excuse me, and if I come off as a smarmy b@stard -well sometimes I am. But, I’m a smarmy b@stard who spends a lot of cash on gaming stuff, so I do my part to support the industry.
While I feel the OGL and 3.X did amazing things for the industry, they set unrealistic expectations for publishers of every kind. The fact is that there just aren’t that many of us who play or purchase gaming materials fro any kind of duration. The majority of people given the opportunity to publish and sell materials, even the exceptional ones, in a more realistic time would have been relegated to fan sites on the web where the material was free and lucky if anyone saw it at all. And the fact is that these days the majority of the stuff is neither well written nor useful.
So I say if you’ve made any money at all consider yourself a winner. The current slump in the industry is the market correcting itself.
 

Jürgen Hubert said:
I'm wondering... are all d20 fantasy products suffer from reduced sales the same way? Or is there some sort of variety depending on the specific product category?

In other words, is there a difference between (say) d20 settings, d20 adventures, and new d20 rules material or "genre books" (such as generic books on horror, dungeons, cities, oceans or whatever)?
Maybe, you should have a look at the number of companies that actually still sell d20 products fitting core D&D. You will see that that number is surprisingly low. The traditional supplements I see at the moment are by Necromancer Games with their adventures and a few sourcebooks mixed in (as far as I understood it they are content if their adventures (not the sourcebooks) just break even), Goodman Games adventures, and Mongoose threw a few cheap compilations on the market. After that, it gets sporadic. Of course, there's Malhavoc with Ptolus, but that's a very special market segment and situation. Everything else comes with a twist or is usable for some different OGL systems.

And if I look at the pdf market - which is probably the target you go for - I have to state that the only recent d20 fantasy product I saw talked about at all was Silk Road. No idea how it sold, though. I didn't see any talk about my favorite d20 fantasy product of late, Inner Circle's "The Broken Isles" (which has a broken download link on ENGS, btw). Perhaps I missed that talk, though.
 

Turjan said:
I have to state that the only recent d20 fantasy product I saw talked about at all was Silk Road. No idea how it sold, though.

A Magical Society: Silk Road has been performing admirably. Our best release ever was 174 sales of a new product in one month. So far Silk Road has sold 70 and there are still 6 days left in this month. It's held the top-selling PDF slot at rpgnow.com since its release. :)

However, that said, it is performing worse than all the other Magical Society books did during the same period (but not by much). This is what we expected due line effect and a generally decreased market. I view it as a success and expect it to continue selling for years.

joe b.
 

Jürgen Hubert said:
I'm wondering... are all d20 fantasy products suffer from reduced sales the same way? Or is there some sort of variety depending on the specific product category?

From what I've read on other forums, the answer appears to be yes. From our standpoint we are doing okay, and could be doing a lot better if we released products quicker. Last month was our best in PDFs with the release of Broken Isles. If we keep up and release a product a month, I could see our numbers growing significantly. Then again, this isn't my sole income, so my insight is different than Phils...
 

jgbrowning said:
A Magical Society: Silk Road has been performing admirably.

Still going to have hardcopies at GenCon?

Part of the problem with short PDFs I think is that they tend to be single-purpose, fill-a-role kinda things. If they pique your interest, or meet a specific need, they're easy to get and very reasonably priced. But sooner or later I think most people find those specific itches get scratched, and you stop seeking them out. You still may make the occasional impromptu pickup, but not as often.

Bigger hardcopy books are different. While their is usually a specific reason you buy you usually do so with the (reasonable or not) expectation that there will be other things of use that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

It's also a lot harder to hand out a meaningful preview of a short PDF without giving away the cow. With a larger work, you can throw out teasers and such that hopefully boost sales.
 

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