SteveC said:
Actually, we are discussing creating nova characters. My point is that you have stated that psions are the best nova characters, but what you are really saying is that a very specific psion build is, which is quite a different thing. D&D is a game about making choices. The more you optimize your character for one specific activity, the more you lose out on anything else. Most of the time when people argue that a particular class is broken, what they're really saying is that if you do a lot of things in combination, it is.
Excuse me? What's good for the goose is not good for the gander?
You listed a VERY SPECIFIC Wizard build with 3 Sudden Maximize feats and that's ok, but it is not ok for me to list a specific (and fairly common) Psion build?
SteveC said:
Ah, but we aren't discussing a 14th level psion, are we? We're talking about a 10th level one. The argument is staying stationary, thank you very much.
Nonsequitor. A 10th level Psion can have a 100% chance of making the roll as well.
SteveC said:
And yes, you can, later on get rid of that feat. When you're 10th level, however, you've purchased skill focus concentration rather than something that would be more useful for your character.
You consider getting the Psionic Focus nearly every round NOT useful???
You have an unusual sense of what is useful.
PS. I would take a Single-minded PsiCrystal with +3 to all Concentration rolls and Alertness and other benefits instead of Skill Focus Concentration if I wanted the bonus.
SteveC said:
No, you still take the damage you just have a buffer of additional temporary hit points...unless you're also playing an Elan character. Hmmn, this build is getting more and more specific all the time, isn't it? It seems more and more like we're talking about one build here, rather than the whole psion class. Otherwise, Vigor is a standard action to use.
Overchannel does not state that other mechanisms to prevent the damage do not work. Some psionic powers (like Empathic Feedback) do that. Overchannel does not. So, Vigor works fine as an Overchannel buffer.
As for Vigor being a Standard Action, yes it is. No different than a Wizard casting Mirror Image on round one in order to protect himself and wait to see the most effective use of his other spells.
Not all combats consist of all enemies being readily seen on round one every combat. Nor do all combats require a Nova. And sometimes, the PCs even surprise the NPCs. Even without Schism, there are plenty of opportunities to use Vigor in many combats. And, even if a Psion takes Overchannel damage, many Psions can heal themselves after combat. Few Wizards have spells that do this.
SteveC said:
If I could step out of this argument for a moment and address the original poster here, wondering about psionics. Much of the time when you hear about any class/feat/race or spell being broken, what's really going on is that the problem only occurs when you make a very specific character. You really need to investigate what's being said before you ban something.
Nobody said that a Psion was broken in this thread. I claimed that they are the Nova Specialists.
Apples and Oranges. Don't put words into other people's mouths.
SteveC said:
Well it's three feats for the concentration check at this level, and you also have to pick a specific race (or deal with the fact that you'll be spending your turn every 2-3 rounds reactivating Vigor).
Schism can be done at 9th level by any Psion who takes it.
No specific race needed.
SteveC said:
KarinsDad said:
Nobody made such a claim. You and I are on sync as to caster levels and manifester levels and damage caps.
Actually, you did, in post 33:
You misunderstood the comment. Psions do have a manifester level cap on their damage, but Wizards have a specific hard cap.
Fireball does 10D6 max. Energy Ball can do 30D6 for a 30th level Psion.
Wizard damage spells tend to become obsolete and have to be replaced with higher level spells. Psionic damage powers do not.
Wizards are more limited in the number of their higher level spells. A high level Psion can do over 20 of his "highest level" powers.
That's over 20 potential Novas per day, not 3 or 4 highest power ones and a bunch of weaker ones like a Wizard.
SteveC said:
Well you didn't mention any of them, and they make this build very specific. Perhaps that's what you meant when you said "psions": one very specific psion build that's focused on this and not much else.
Nope. I've had Psion builds without these feats and still Nova like crazy. This was just an example. And, Nova typically does not need to be done every round. Just in an early round in order to soften up the opposition and let the Fighter types mop up.
SteveC said:
Actually, I checked the spell compendium and don't know where I got the base 20 feet. The spell is a base 15 feet, widened -->30'.
Actually, check the spell compendium, greater fireburst does D10.
I was using the original Greater Fireburst from Complete Arcane.
Max 15D8 damage. 10 foot radius.
Hence the reason I got confused as to why you were not using a 10th level Wizard for your example. We used spells with the same name from different books.
SteveC said:
Yes, it would take six feats to do this. The question is: are we debating this in terms of a reasonable build or a possible build? I made that example deliberately to make a point: it is perfectly legal level 10 wizard build (the sudden feats are metamagic feats, and therefore you can take them with your wizard bonus feats). The real question is: does this build actually prove anything? No, it really doesn't. Should a GM say "holy crap, I should ban wizards?" Of course not. The problem isn't with the wizard class, or the psion build, but rather that extreme builds can have extreme results. That's why there's Rule 0.
Right. Psions out of the box have first level D10 per level damage powers and D6+1 per level Energy damage powers without any feats or PrCs or anything else.
Wizards do not.
If you want to get extreme with a Wizard, I can get extreme with a Psion.
I can have a mid-level Psion do his level * 9+ points of damage to multiple opponents. That's practically a save or die for the vast majority of similar level opponents and if you save, you still take half damage. Most opponents do not have 9 hit points per level, especially before 10th level or so.
SteveC said:
I'm going to snip your 15th level psion example, below, because we're not talking about a 15th level caster, we're talking 10th.
Yup. I thought you switched caster level on me.
SteveC said:
I did note here that you're using the schism school here rather than the Elan school. You are aware that you've had to spend another feat to get that power, right?
Reading is fundamental. You'll notice that I listed it as 3 or 4 feats depending on Discipline.
Elan, btw, is a race, not a school. Schism is a power, not a school.
SteveC said:
I'm going to agree with you herel. In any of these discussions, we tend to forget key rules issues that make our points more difficult to prove, and ignore the tradeoffs we have to make. That serves to make the discussion largely useless.
It does not make the discussion useless. It means that more detail has to be put into the discussion in order for the larger picture to be observed and understood.
SteveC said:
The real problem comes in when a poster asks a question like "should I allow psionics in my game?" What usually happens is that a very experienced member of the boards comes by (which, you certainly are) and says "no, because it can do X, Y and Z!" The problem becomes that this discourages the original poster from adding the element to their game, when it may be either hard to do "X, Y and Z," or it may suffer enough of a drawback to make the character less useful in other situations.
I never said that. Again, you put words into my mouth. I think Psionics are great. But, people have to be aware that Psions are Nova specialists (just like Warmages are Nova specialists) and they can disrupt a game if an experience player plays one. The DM should be aware of the potential problems and how to address them (like multiple encounters per day to minimize Nova every single round).
SteveC said:
The best answer is to simply let people be aware of those situations so that they can decide what they want to do with them.
I have had just the character you're writing about in a game that I co-ran. The thing is, that character didn't dominate every battle, and we played up to 14th level I think. The game was the Tomb of Abysthor, and this build just wasn't very effective against the zillions and zillions of clerics of Orcus. "Hmmn, I wonder what spells of fourth level or less I should make myself immune to...how about energy missile and energy ball." Since we were running with full transparency, there was a bit of a problem for him. The real problem for us was the cleric, which is to be expected.
Energy Missile is not a spell.
It is a power. Even with transparency, I know of no way to make someone immune to that power. Spell Immunity will not do it. If you allowed this, you added a house rule.
Plus, it requires a trained only Psicraft roll DC 15 + power level to identify a manifested power. Even if a DM allowed Spell Immunity to work, the Clerics would have to identify the power first. I suspect most Clerics of Orcus in that module do not have the Psicraft skill (in fact, I know they do not since I have run that module).
Sure, if you make up house rules, you can neuter a Psion.
It sounds like you screwed that player quite a bit. Way to go.
