D&D 5E Sell me on Wizards

[mcintma]

I think the 5e Wiz is a solid (i.e. average or middle-tier) class at low-mid levels. What remains to be seen, what I fear, is that the poverty of high -level slots was 'a nerf too far' (late in the playtest). One single 7th level spell that can fizzle when the Fighter is attacking 6 times per round multiple times per day, I dunno. Have not playtested high -level, hope to be proven wrong.

 

[KarinsDad]

Hold Person gets to be as powerful as it is as a 2nd level spell because it has the humanoids only restriction. At higher levels, there's hold monster. Hold person is just as powerful as hold monster, a 5th level spell, except that it only affects humanoids. It makes up for having all that power at 3 spell levels lower by having a limit on what types of creatures it can affect. Even if you don't end up encountering humanoids as often in your game, there are plenty of other spells at level 2 that will work on any type of creature. Hold person is just one spell out of many. It seems to me that you have unreasonable expectations for what a single level 2 spell should be able to accomplish.

Actually, Hold Person is stronger than Hold Monster when appropriate. In a level 5 slot, that's 4 humanoid foes that one can hold vs. one.

But the math holds at level 2. One is lucky to get 2 rounds out of it and the most likely scenario is either 0 rounds or 1 round.


At the earliest level acquired, Hold Monster is better in a 5th level slot at level 9 then Hold Person is in a 2nd level slot at level 3 due to the fact that the DC is typically 4 higher. Granted, some monsters will have better than a +2 save, but the odds of getting a monster for at least one round with it is often better than those in the table above for the Hold Person case.

It seems to me that you have unreasonable expectations for what a single level 2 spell should be able to accomplish.

If you say so. I just think that a PC's highest level spell should accomplish something a high percentage of the time. 50% to 60% of the time is ok, but the odds of failing completely or only working a single round is extremely high. At level 3 when a PC first gets the spell and it uses up his highest level slot, it should be the cat's meow for that PC, not the "Come on, poppa needs a new pair of shoes".

 

[Authweight]

It's not just the high risk high reward of casting a spell, it's also the high risk of the spell not being worthwhile on any given adventure day. And it's also the low reward of taking a single relatively uncommon (i.e. humanoid worth casting it on) foe out for one or two rounds which is what happens most of the time.

In 5e, preparing a spell you don't use isn't such a big deal, since you can just use the slots on a different prepared spell. My approach to the wizard would always be to prepare one or two always useful spells and then lots of spells that are highly situational. Then I maximize my chance of having the right tool for the job, but I can use my slots on my general purpose stuff if those situations don't come up.

 

[KarinsDad]

In 5e, preparing a spell you don't use isn't such a big deal, since you can just use the slots on a different prepared spell. My approach to the wizard would always be to prepare one or two always useful spells and then lots of spells that are highly situational. Then I maximize my chance of having the right tool for the job, but I can use my slots on my general purpose stuff if those situations don't come up.

Agreed.

I just think that Hold Person is one of those spells that unless a player knows that situation is coming, is not worth the effort at all until at least level 5 when the spell in a level 3 slot can target 2 foes. It's not a "prepare for that situation" type of spell because a) it rarely works well (even the one round version is a bit meh since the wizard gives up his action and a spell slot in order to give up the action of a single foe, granted, other PCs might be able stomp that one foe in that round), b) humanoids worth casting the spell over are few and far between.

 

[Mort]

I think the 5e Wiz is a solid (i.e. average or middle-tier) class at low-mid levels.

I'm curious to see your ranking of the classes at low levels. I'd put the wizard high on that list at low levels, and it only gets higher. Between very good out of combat utility AND high combat effectiveness, I can't see it being "mid tier."

What remains to be seen, what I fear, is that the poverty of high -level slots was 'a nerf too far' (late in the playtest). One single 7th level spell that can fizzle when the Fighter is attacking 6 times per round multiple times per day,

If the fighter is attacking six times, he's using action surge. That's a once (twice at very high level) between rests ability. The wizard gets arcane recovery, so he can recover spells when the fighter is recovering action surge (granted, if the DM often allows for multiple short rests, the fighter gets a bigger benefit here).

As for 7th level spells fizzling, I don't have my PHB with me, but looking at the basic rules, none of the spells are particularly fizzle prone.

Delayed Blast fireball: good damage (12-13d6) to many targets, great against mobs of opponents which are very dangerous with bounded accuracy.
Finger of Death: amazing damage on a failed save, ok damage on a successful save (you're looking at around 25 points of damage even if the save is successful).

Mordenkainen's sword: weak for a 7th level spell, but it doesn't "fizzle" unless the mage fails a concentration check.

Teleport: old standby, useful as ever.

Plenty to go by here, but if the wizard wants, he can scale up his lower level spells instead (heck, fireball as a 7th level spell is nearly the same as delayed blast fireball, just a tad less situational utility)

Idunno. Have not playtested high -level, hope to be proven wrong.

Yes, we'll have to see, but I'll be surprised if the mage comes off as anything but extremely strong at high levels.

 

[Dausuul]

As for 7th level spells fizzling, I don't have my PHB with me, but looking at the basic rules, none of the spells are particularly fizzle prone.

Delayed Blast fireball: good damage (12-13d6) to many targets, great against mobs of opponents which are very dangerous with bounded accuracy.
Finger of Death: amazing damage on a failed save, ok damage on a successful save (you're looking at around 25 points of damage even if the save is successful).

Mordenkainen's sword: weak for a 7th level spell, but it doesn't "fizzle" unless the mage fails a concentration check.

Teleport: old standby, useful as ever.

Yeah, 7th-level spells are very solid. For my money, the best option here is forcecage. No save, no miss chance, just put one enemy in a box until you darn well feel like letting it out. And unlike previous editions, the 1,500 gp material component is a one-time cost instead of something you have to pay with every casting. It even interferes with teleportation.

I'm playing a wizard in a 12th-level game right now, and have had no complaints whatsoever about my power level. (Obviously, I can't cast forcecage yet, but have seen it used by an enemy spellcaster and it works just as well as you'd expect.)

 

[Mr Fixit]

Finger of Death: amazing damage on a failed save, ok damage on a successful save (you're looking at around 25 points of damage even if the save is successful).

I'm not sold on either Disintegrate or Finger of Death. Both single target spells with no damage at all on a successful save (Dis.) or so-so damage given its level (FoD). Granted, on a failed save, they do nice damage, but against one target only. Not bad, but not exactly great.

17th level Open Hand monk can dish out guaranteed 10d10 (avg.55) damage every other round all day long with Quivering Palm for only 3 ki points (recoverable after a short rest), and that's on a failed save. Insta-death on a failed save.

 

[Runny]

I'm not sold on either Disintegrate or Finger of Death. Both single target spells with no damage at all on a successful save (Dis.) or so-so damage given its level (FoD). Granted, on a failed save, they do nice damage, but against one target only. Not bad, but not exactly great.

17th level Open Hand monk can dish out guaranteed 10d10 (avg.55) damage every other round all day long with Quivering Palm for only 3 ki points (recoverable after a short rest), and that's on a failed save. Insta-death on a failed save.

Why are you comparing a level 11 ability to a level 9 ability? The proper comparison is Quivering Palm to Power Word Kill.

 

[raleel]

Alright, first level wizard - what does your spellbook contain?

I am guessing Identify, Detect Magic, and Find Familiar, because they are all rituals and don't actually have to be memorized.

Sleep is almost a given but perhaps people like something else.

I personally like fog cloud and grease, but also like unseen servant. And that is too many!

 

[sithramir]

I think the concentration attack spells are more balanced with multiple saving throws for wizards but there is barely any defense for a low HP and semi low AC character.