D&D 5E Sell me on Wizards

[Falling Icicle]

Actually, Hold Person is stronger than Hold Monster when appropriate. In a level 5 slot, that's 4 humanoid foes that one can hold vs. one.

I was talking about the spells at their base spell levels, but yes, that is a big advantage, and that's why hold person is well worth preparing at higher levels. If you encounter humanoids, it can give you a decisive advantage. If not, oh well, it's just one of your dozen or so prepared spells.

But the math holds at level 2. One is lucky to get 2 rounds out of it and the most likely scenario is either 0 rounds or 1 round.

Those odds are acceptable IMO, considering just how bad it is for the monster if it fails its save against that spell. Compare it to scorching ray, for example. Scorching ray deals an average of 21 damage, and that's all that it does. Hold person not only causes the creature to lose its ability to act, it also gives all of your allies advantage on their attacks against it and automatic crits if they hit it. That can end up contributing more damage than scorching ray does, and that's in addition to keeping the monster from doing anything to your party. The spell may only last up to 3 rounds most of the time, but the creature isn't likely to survive that long when the entire party is critical-hitting it.

All of that said, I prefer blindness/deafness over hold person. It's not quite as debilitating as hold person, but it works on almost anything and doesn't require concentration. Once you have level 3 spells, you can get hypnotic pattern. That spell is simply amazing. It can disable an entire group of enemies, and they don't get saving throws in later rounds to break free. It does break on damage, but just make sure your party is aware of that and pick them off one by one.

 

[transtemporal]

I think the 5e Wiz is a solid (i.e. average or middle-tier) class at low-mid levels. What remains to be seen, what I fear, is that the poverty of high -level slots was 'a nerf too far' (late in the playtest). One single 7th level spell that can fizzle when the Fighter is attacking 6 times per round multiple times per day, I dunno. Have not playtested high -level, hope to be proven wrong.

I guess its 6 times a round if you get a bonus action and if you get a reaction, but that's not guaranteed every round. Whats more, my fighter can only apply that to a single target whereas a wizard can take out whole crowds with AoE.

I have a sneaky suspicion the FLWQ equation is still present in 5e, just not quite as overwhelming as it was in some editions.

 

[Dausuul]

Alright, first level wizard - what does your spellbook contain?

I am guessing Identify, Detect Magic, and Find Familiar, because they are all rituals and don't actually have to be memorized.

Sleep is almost a given but perhaps people like something else.

I personally like fog cloud and grease, but also like unseen servant. And that is too many!

Identify can wait. How many magic items are you likely to find at 1st level?

My votes would be sleep, shield, find familiar, disguise self, burning hands, feather fall. I could see swapping in detect magic for one of those, though.

 

[KarinsDad]

Identify can wait. How many magic items are you likely to find at 1st level?

First level wet behind the ears adventurers have heard all of the tales of glory, and magic items, and wealth. OF COURSE the wizard is going to take the Identify spell right away!!! How is he going to know how many charges are on that found wand if he doesn't?

< / tongue in cheek >

 

[mcintma]

I guess its 6 times a round if you get a bonus action and if you get a reaction, but that's not guaranteed every round. Whats more, my fighter can only apply that to a single target whereas a wizard can take out whole crowds with AoE.

I have a sneaky suspicion the FLWQ equation is still present in 5e, just not quite as overwhelming as it was in some editions.

No, 11th level Ftr can attack 6 times per round before/without using bonus action or reaction or accounting for possible TWF, haste, magic items, etc. This is using Action surge (once per short rest). And I only single out Ftr for convenience, other martials have mean stuff too, not saying Ftr or martials are OP. Like I said I just suspect not enough caster slots 7th-9th to keep up, but could be wrong.

 

[Authweight]

No, 11th level Ftr can attack 6 times per round before/without using bonus action or reaction or accounting for possible TWF, haste, magic items, etc. This is using Action surge (once per short rest). And I only single out Ftr for convenience, other martials have mean stuff too, not saying Ftr or martials are OP. Like I said I just suspect not enough caster slots 7th-9th to keep up, but could be wrong.

Remember that the wizard can use arcane recovery to get back his highest level slot if that's what he wants to do, so he can cast it twice in a day. By the time you're high level, you have all your old lower-level slots, which are still quite effective, plus you have several high level slots, which are crazy effective, plus you can use arcane recovery to get back your one higher level slot or lots of low-level slots, whichever suits you at the time.

 

[mcintma]

Remember that the wizard can use arcane recovery to get back his highest level slot if that's what he wants to do, so he can cast it twice in a day. By the time you're high level, you have all your old lower-level slots, which are still quite effective, plus you have several high level slots, which are crazy effective, plus you can use arcane recovery to get back your one higher level slot or lots of low-level slots, whichever suits you at the time.

Arcane Rec only allows lower-level slots up to 5th. I'm specifically 'worried' about 7th-9th.

 

[Authweight]

Arcane Rec only allows lower-level slots up to 5th. I'm specifically 'worried' about 7th-9th.

You're right, I missed that it only covers spells up to 5th level.

 

[mcintma]

You're right, I missed that it only covers spells up to 5th level.

Yeah it's an easy caveat to miss, you are not the only one.

 

[Mort]

Arcane Rec only allows lower-level slots up to 5th. I'm specifically 'worried' about 7th-9th.

I suspect both limited high level slots and the arcane recovery limitation are there to address the "quadratic wizard" issue.

With bounded accuracy, the low-mid level spells stay viable longer. The high level spells really should be limited resource encounter enders.

I suspect it will work best this way. If not, well it's much easier to tweak by giving more than by taking away.

We'll see.