Sell the fluff, pimp the crunch

[Kzach]

In recent discussions here I've seen numerous comments about how Wizards seem to be trying to sell fluff books whilst limiting crunch to DDI.

My contention here is that this is a good thing.

I've often worried about the future of D&D because of the nature and progression of the internet as a delivery medium. I've reconciled that I won't purchase crunch books because they'll just be outdated with errata eventually and for the most part, I believe in the value of staying up to date.

So how does WotC make money? Some people might not care about this, but to me, the continued vibrancy of the hobby depends on WotC's survival and D&D being a profitable venture. At some point, people have to realise this or we will all lose out in the long run.

But that doesn't mean I want to be ripped off or that I'm willing to pay for poor or outdated product.

It seems to me, then, that selling fluff books and pimping the crunch through DDI is the perfect solution for everyone, including us as consumers. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that Dungeon & Dragon magazines should no longer be PDF's and solely be presented as web pages. I'd even go further and say that they should be presented as web pages that can't be copied or printed.

Books like the Neverwinter Campaign Setting are the perfect compromise in today's market. That and adventure modules. Minimal crunch so you don't feel like you're wasting your money on content that's going to be changed before you've even purchased it, and the type of thing you want in your hands to sit down and read and use as inspiration at the table.

Of course, it has been put forward that the NWCS is more a DM's book (which I actually disagree on), but that is only one example of the type of book that can work in this paradigm. I'm sure there are plenty of player-specific, non-crunch books that could be produced. And if you want access to the crunch, you have to get it through DDI. And that way it can be modified, updated, errata'd and play-tested endlessly without paperback repercussions.

I, for one, would be happy with this paradigm. Would you?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It seems to me, then, that selling fluff books and pimping the crunch through DDI is the perfect solution for everyone, including us as consumers.

<snip>

I, for one, would be happy with this paradigm. Would you?

There is rarely a situation in which "one size fits all" is actually true, and this one is no different. I am not now, nor am I ever likely to be a DDI subscriber. So online-only crunch effectively kills the game for me, at least in the sense of it being a commercial product I spend money on. I might still play it, but WotC wouldn't be making much money from me, if any.

 

[Kzach]

I might still play it, but WotC wouldn't be making much money from me, if any.

Are they making any money off you now? What have you bought in the last twelve months?

 

[Oldtimer]

In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that Dungeon & Dragon magazines should no longer be PDF's and solely be presented as web pages. I'd even go further and say that they should be presented as web pages that can't be copied or printed.

This is something that would be of zero value to me. If I can't print out an adventure, I have no use for it.

Not only that, but it's technically impossible to present something on the screen of a general purpose PC and keep it from being copied/printed. That would demand a whole new kind of display device, something I'm not interested in investing in.

 

[Matt James]

People have been skipping content straight from the books anyways and have been waiting for it to appear in the online updates to the CB. It makes sense that the books support the story, flavor, and fluff while DDI provides the brunt of the crunch.

 

[Kzach]

Not only that, but it's technically impossible to present something on the screen of a general purpose PC and keep it from being copied/printed. That would demand a whole new kind of display device, something I'm not interested in investing in.

I was confusing the two products. Of course you'd need to be able to print Dungeon adventures in order to use them. I was more thinking of the articles and player crunch presented in both of them not being handed out on a silver PDF platter.

What does everyone say about DDI? Get a month of it, download everything, then quit it. This isn't a sustainable model and I'm guessing it's why they changed to the Silverlight CB. Hell, even now there's a thing called "CBLoader" which makes the Silverlight Character Builder redundant.

In fact, why not go one step further and take Dungeon offline altogether. Keep Dragon as the article vehicle and expand it to fill the Dungeon void. Crunch, crunch, crunch.

Instead, Dungeon becomes a print product again except on, say, a three month cycle with a hard cover, beautiful maps and illustrations, etc. and highly polished, well thought out adventures. This could be tied in with Encounters. Instead of handing out free goodies, people need to buy the Dungeon hard-covers to run Encounters at the stores. This helps the stores as well! Maybe even sell them at a discount to Encounters DM's and players who are registered at the store as Premium Members.

Again, people are always complaining about the quality and quantity of adventure publications, so this would solve that.

 

[UnknownAtThisTime]

There is rarely a situation in which "one size fits all" is actually true, and this one is no different. I am not now, nor am I ever likely to be a DDI subscriber. So online-only crunch effectively kills the game for me, at least in the sense of it being a commercial product I spend money on. I might still play it, but WotC wouldn't be making much money from me, if any.

[MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION] ,
Not to derail the thread, but I respect your opinion, so I want to ask: Why are you not now, nor ever likely to be a DDI subscriber?

 

[Mirtek]

This isn't a sustainable model

It's not the customers responsibility to make sure that WotC's model is sustainable. If they are legally buying by the terms set by WotC, then it's WotC's fault for offering to sell at those terms.

In fact, why not go one step further and take Dungeon offline altogether.

I don't think we'll ever again see a print dungeon magazine.

Keep Dragon as the article vehicle and expand it to fill the Dungeon void. Crunch, crunch, crunch.

Well, during the last months they seem to try to beat each other at a "how few crunch can we offer this month in Dragon" game

This could be tied in with Encounters. Instead of handing out free goodies, people need to buy the Dungeon hard-covers to run Encounters at the stores.

And all these people would then not only give their free time for free to "work" for WotC but actually pay WotC to be allowed to spend their free time to work for them instead of just thinking "**** this, I am back to runing a home game" because of?

This helps the stores as well!

Because it's much more interesting to not only beg people to DM for them for free, but to beg people to pay them to be allowed to DM for them for free?

Since the days of LG I have never seen a Con/Store/other game day location that had too many DMs. I have seen a whole lot of players having been send away because there were too few DMs to have enough seats for all interested players, never seen the opposite. I don't know how it's at the really huge Cons, but all Cons I ever visited had free entry for all days if you just volunteered to DM a single game at a single day.

Trying to get the DMs to pay to be allowed to DM? Seriously?

Hell, even now there's a thing called "CBLoader" which makes the Silverlight Character Builder redundant.

The sad thing is that also many long-time DDI subscribers prefer the CBloaded offline builder over the silverlight builder because it offers a much better service.

Not because of price, these people are paying their DDI fees, but because it supports more game rules than the official siverlight builder, has fewer bugs, the bugs that appear are fixed more quickly and new material is added faster than into the official silverlight CB.

It's also much more user friendly once you have build your character and want to get a character sheet. The official silverlight builder doesn't even let you chose a custom protrait for your sheet, while the offline builder already allowed you to move every information to wherever you want it to be. Want your basic attack in the middle of page 2 instead of the bottom right of page 1? Sure, here you go. The only thing the silverlight builder has going over the offline builder is the ritual book. That was a great addition but is sadly the only point where the silverlight builder is not inferior to the offline builder.

Sure improving the service level of the silverlight builder won't ever persuade the people who just want to pirate to get everything for free, however it's sad when pirates enjoy a better service and product than the actual customers

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Are they making any money off you now? What have you bought in the last twelve months?

Without going into the timeline, my 4Ed purchases are:

1. DMG
2. MM
3. PHB1
4. PHB2
5. PHB3
6. PHR: Dragonborn
7. PHR: Tieflings
8. MP1
9. MP2
10. AP
11. DP
12. PsyP
13. PriP
14. AV1
15. AV2
16. FRPG
17. EPG
18. DSPG
19. HoS
20. HotFK
21. HotFL
22. RC

Of those, only the initial Core 3 were not purchased in the last 12mo...and ALL were bought in FLGSs.

 

[Quickleaf]

In recent discussions here I've seen numerous comments about how Wizards seem to be trying to sell fluff books whilst limiting crunch to DDI.

My contention here is that this is a good thing.

If you're speaking about core rules, why not put up a 4e equivalent of the d20 or Pathfinder SRD - that didn't seem to hurt sales any for those other games.

I've often worried about the future of D&D because of the nature and progression of the internet as a delivery medium. I've reconciled that I won't purchase crunch books because they'll just be outdated with errata eventually and for the most part, I believe in the value of staying up to date.

Or WotC could just vet their stuff better and not need to errata so much. Or, like our group, you can ignore most of the errata.

The main thrust of your argument seems to be "since it's going to be errated anyhow..." If they really want an evergreen D&D they need to put their money where their mouth is and design one.

So how does WotC make money? Some people might not care about this, but to me, the continued vibrancy of the hobby depends on WotC's survival and D&D being a profitable venture. At some point, people have to realise this or we will all lose out in the long run.

Youve got to realize that WotC has plenty of other product lines besides D&D that make more money than D&D. They were a TCG to begin with and if they went belly up I'd wonder about Magic more than D&D. And while I want WotC to succeed too, I've no doubts that Paizo would rise to that occasion in a heartbeat.

I was confusing the two products. Of course you'd need to be able to print Dungeon adventures in order to use them. I was more thinking of the articles and player crunch presented in both of them not being handed out on a silver PDF platter.

And you could photocopy a physical magazine, so...?

I *think* your argument boils down to the benefits of a subscription based publication service without a downloadable format.

In which case I disagree, and that's why I let my 2-3 year DDi subscription expire last October. I don't buy that business model because what happens when (a) I'm playing without an Internet connection, or (b) their servers crash or they take down DDi when the next edition comes out.

What does everyone say about DDI? Get a month of it, download everything, then quit it. This isn't a sustainable model and I'm guessing it's why they changed to the Silverlight CB. Hell, even now there's a thing called "CBLoader" which makes the Silverlight Character Builder redundant.

That's not how I roll, though I can see how it was a problem for them. That said, I think their solution was inelegant and threw the baby out with the bathwater.

Quick story. I signed up for DDi a few months after its elease and used it continuously for 2-3 years. For 2 months I'm not gaming being buried in work, and during that time my laptop dies. During that time DDi goes online. The character builder isn't among the recoverable files, but I learn on ENWorld that google cache has the Character Builder installer so I download that. Guess what? I have the demo version of the Character Builder now. And no legal way to get the old Character Builder back.

Tough luck customer.

Tough luck WotC. Unsubscribe.

Again, people are always complaining about the quality and quantity of adventure publications, so this would solve that.

I'll pay attention to WotC adventures (and products in general) when I hear them start to improve and, you know, have something that resembles a fuller release schedule. Recently, WotC has had a way with unintentional false promises.