Sell the fluff, pimp the crunch

[Quickleaf]

Playtesting has recently started being a big part of product oversight. I can't get into specifics but there are now dozens of playtest groups across the world. If you go to the WotC forums, some users have playtester icons attached to their account.

Fair enough. That's good to hear coming from you Matt. Maybe a wider pool of playtesters and giving the process more time will help, at least I think it would have to.

 

[Lalato]

Someone mentioned playtesting. I've been a playtester for WotC for early versions of 4E. So if the question was if 4E was playtested, the answer is yes. To what extent it was playtested, I have no idea. I only know what my group did. Can't really answer more than that.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It's not that we're questioning whether it was playtested, it's that we're questioning how many playtesters were connected to designing the game.

I've been a playtester myself- not for WotC or TSR- and I was and am utterly unconnected to any RPG publisher. So when I got to playtest, the entire system (or major parts of it) were entirely new to me, and that unfamiliarity meant I had no idea how things were supposed to work, only what the words in front of me said. With no or minimal familiarity with the game tested, my mind wasn't subconsciously filling in gaps or correcting errors.

 

[Incenjucar]

It's not that we're questioning whether it was playtested, it's that we're questioning how many playtesters were connected to designing the game.

There's also the issue of designers not actually acting on feedback, which is a plague in any creative or business endeavor. Additionally, you have the problem of bias, either for or against; both can cause a lot of problems.

 

[Gronin]

Playtesting has recently started being a big part of product oversight. I can't get into specifics but there are now dozens of playtest groups across the world. If you go to the WotC forums, some users have playtester icons attached to their account.

Thanks for the answer ...I must admit to have stopped frequenting the WOTC forums some time ago. I may have to begin more agressive lurking.

I am relieved to hear that WOTC has begun to make playtesting a bigger part of the process. I suppose time will tell how effective the new plan is.

 

[delericho]

Taking this behaviour of project development as granted, the DDI way of constantly changing and updating the game in an uncomplicated way (for DDI subscribers) is a cool, satisfying solution.

For you. Perhaps for the majority.

Personally, I hate the ongoing cycle of revisions. It's an absolute deal-breaker for me - even if every other issue I had with 4e were fixed, I still wouldn't return as a customer as long as the revisions are ongoing. And I won't even look at 5e unless there's an undertaking from WotC that they're done with the constant changes.

When building my character, I want the ability to make sensible and informed choices about his development. But I simply do not have time to keep track of the many thousands of options now available to any given class, and I don't have time to keep track of the ongoing changes to my character's powers - potentially, every time we get together to play.

It's not quite enough to drop out of my group of friends and refuse to play. But it is really, really annoying.

 

[DracoSuave]

I seriously have to spell this out for you? How about not being deliberately obtuse solely in order to manufacture an argument where there is none?

I had a long-winded counter argument about how renting crunch is inherently wrong. But relative brevity, is perhapse best.

Brick-and-Mortars are less likely to carry the fluff for games that they cannot sell the means to play. Without the ability to create business for such books, they've no reason to stock it on their shelves. I don't know about you, but printing books no one wants to sell is absolutely terrible business.

At its Core, D&D is a game about pretending to do things. Sourcebooks that have new things you can do have always outsold books that describe new places to be. Many people dislike the forgotten realms, and many people who like the forgotten realms don't like the new setting. It's a place they don't want to be. BUT, they bought the book anyways, because Swordmaging might be something they'd like to do.

Crunch will sell books that fluff cannot. People LOVE options of things to play. Setting crap is something only one player needs... the DM. And he can make up his own. Crunch is useful to 100% of players. So Crunch is what needs to be on store shelves.

There's other points as well. But this one is the most important... that removing crunch from physical sales will lead to the death of the game. I figured that'd be the most important.

 

[Zaran]

I too think that the fluff stuff should be printed. Moreso i think print should br for gms and ddi to be for player. But I think there should be more of it. And I also think that ddi doesnt get the grade A development.

So I really think WotC is just doing enough to keep subscriptions and coasting along instead of trying to stretch the envelope. I want to see dm content. I want to see the VT focused on until it's brilliant. I want to see adventures and settings updated for 4e. Or new settings. Really I don't care how they do it. I just want to feel like they have more than than a handful I people developing the game.

 

[Scribble]

Crunch will sell books that fluff cannot. People LOVE options of things to play. Setting crap is something only one player needs... the DM. And he can make up his own. Crunch is useful to 100% of players. So Crunch is what needs to be on store shelves.

There's other points as well. But this one is the most important... that removing crunch from physical sales will lead to the death of the game. I figured that'd be the most important.

I think that's the way it's BEEN, but I'd be interested to see how it actually IS now. Do the crunch books outsell the DDI? Unfortunately I doubt WoTC is going to give us any numbers.

I can say for myself I pretty much didn't buy the crunch heavy splat books. The 4e books I've bought have been the more flavorful ones- the ones I enjoy sitting around reading and getting inspired. The crunch I prefer sitting in my CB for when I need it. I realize that's how I like it, but I wonder how many of me there are out there.

This was kind of true in 3e as well for me. I said in another thread that I bought pretty much all 3pp stuff, and that was mainly because the flavor was much better. (I was a huge Scarred Lands fan.) Half the time it even ended up causing me to overlook the crunch. For instance I tended to get annoyed at the Malhavoc Press stuff crunchwise, but loved the flavor, so I ended up buying/using a lot of his books.

As far as the rules only in the DDI...

A while back I sold all my DVDs. I didn't buy blueray, nor will I. If I want to see a movie I stream it either from netflix, or Zune.

Yep- I don't own anything anymore, and I'm just renting stuff... But: It's just not worth lugging all that crap around, and since it will inevitably be replaced with some other format anyway (Who still watches their VHS tapes? and now I know someone will say they do just to prove someone wrong on the internet.) what's the benefit of buying it? (I guess I can pull them out and show them to my grand kids so they can laugh at how crappy everything looks...)

Now I don't know if I can say the same thing about the DDI... With movies and music, despite the format changes the content is still the same... So if say a new way to stream comes out that is higher quality, I know I'll still have the same movie... Dunno if DDI will always hold 4e.

If WoTC started adding all of their game catalog to the DDI, and indicated that in the event of a new edition 4e would still be in the DDI... Then I'd be tempted to be fine with an all digital thing. I'd probably want the tools anyway when I was playing the game.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

The dichotomy of fluff and crunch is the wrong one for a DDI/print split. Both delivery methods should have plenty of fluff and crunch. If you want a split that makes sense, consider something like this:

1. Ignore any marketing/sales effort that is too focused on print-only or electronic-only media. Example, trying to make a book that sales massively upfront due to a huge marketing splash, and thus letting that aspect cause content to be included that should not be there.

2. Accept that the print/electronic divide is naturally one that supports two very different customer types: A.) Early adopters, the infamous "completists," and so on. B.) Those that want some quality stuff that they can sit down and browse.

3. Accept that a game system with lots of fiddly bits will never be quite right in every detail, and that the big boss ain't gonna ever give ya enough budget to playtest it well enough before it gets released in the wild.

4. Accordingly, everything you do is released electronically first. At least a six month lead time, but often more than that. This is all subscriber based, but delivery is focused on making people want to subscribe. This is where the money is for this medium. If your anti-piracy option has any appreciable negative effect on making people want to subscribe, you can't afford it. Really, you cannot afford it. Remember, your customers here are people driven to be early adopters (with the game, if nothing else) and those that gotta have it all.

5. The people who naturally gravitate towards the electronic side will make pretty fair early playtesters. That is, they'll both pick up on some narrow institutional blindness that may have crept into the mix, and they'll also nit pick details to death. There is no dead horse that they can't make bounce a few times. What they often lack is a bigger picture. And given the state of what they are given, one can hardly blame them.

6. Then you take the really good eletronic stuff. It has been used. It has survived the critics of #5. If it cannot run that gauntlet, you keep it online (perhaps with errrata or comments or whatever), but it doesn't make The Print Cut. Even if the best game developer on staff has a pet piece that everyone loves, if the critics have hit it hard, you can't risk it. The good stuff gets proposed and packaged into a coherent book, preferably with a theme. You don't dribble in an extra page of feats to round out the folio. If you have 142 pages of good stuff, it is going to be a 128 page book. If you have 126 pages of good stuff, it is going to be a 96 page book. Editing out even some of the good stuff is the best way on the planet to ensure that what makes it is highly likely to actually be good.

7. Now you let the marketing/sales team go to town with this planned print product. While they are ramping up, you have a very focused playtest with drafts of this product, from people actually using it, and you listen to them. If they don't give you good feedback, you get some new playtesters. You don't need many, but you do need some dedication. You might have to pay them a bit, because what they are doing is work. What they are going to do is turn your 96 or 128 pages of good stuff into a great book.

8. Having produced this great book, with some painstaking effort, you know that most of the sales will be on launch. However, you can expect a somewhat "longer tail" than normal--because it is a really great book. And your electronic stuff is reminding people about this book all the time. Some people that never touch the electronic side will hear about it and still want it.

Experiment hard electronically. Craft painstakingly with print. Sustain this overtime and watch reputation and profits rachet a little with each hardwon milestone.