Semi-Rant: Maturity and dumbing down a game

[Shadowslayer]

Here's the article I usually trot out for discussions like this. Kinda sums up my attitude on it completely. (No I'm not a Monte fan-boy, and in fact don't own any of his stuff, unless you count the DMG.)

Here's the link: http://www.montecook.com/arch_anrant3.html

And here's the most relevant quote from it IMO. (Emphasis is mine)

"Gamer evolution isn't a line. It's a circle -- sort of. You see, if you make your way down either path long enough, you eventually get to the point where you realize that some of that abstract, monster-hackin', stat-focused gaming that you enjoyed back in the old days is still sort of fun. Sure, it's not exactly as it was then, but somewhere between nostalgia and freeing oneself from utter pretentiousness, you learn that it's all fun. Hacking and slashing, true and powerful roleplaying, and even a deadly (and satisfying) critical hit now and again." end of quote

If you feel your way is better than mine, fine, but don't tell me my way is less mature. It is a most arrogant and pretentious assumption, and it is also wrong.
Trev

 

[Odhanan]

I do think gamers that play at what I discribed as High School level, others call hack and slash, have some maturing to do within the game regardless of how old they are. And in SO many games I've run the majority of the players do play at that High School level. This eventually causes the Lowest Denominator effect in that since those players are not putting in the effort, the quality of all the players in that game begins to erode. The better - yes, BETTER - RPGers begin to play down and combat becomes - "does it attack?" "attack of opportunity" " me too" "what's its AC?" " I miss" " I hit. 8dmg." - stale, insipid, uninspired gameplay that is the antithesis of RPG. Role-Playing. Playing a Role. This involves by its very nature some level of acting as you take on a role. There is a fourth wall there that gets no respect and an immersion that is necessary to experience the game fully. In my opinion, which I'll defend with my own 20 years of experience, true role-playing is narrative style gameplay where mechanics become secondary to the plot and the story and the "play" that is being put on by the people playing roles. And in most core books it explicitly states how rules are meant to be bent and the important thing is to have fun.

You're wrong, IMO. There isn't a linear, "academic" evolution of RPGers, but a cycle with no "better" or "worse". Just different types of fun the players are searching for which have nothing to do whatsoever with a so-called "maturity" of the gameplay.

The Evolution of Munchkin, by Monte Cook. It's worth posting this link again, I think.

 

[The Shaman]

Actually he said the mechanical fighting bits as what was distinct from roleplaying, and I agree.

Both Dremmen and Hussar described examples of integrating mechanics and roleplaying - in Hussar's case, I found it interesting that in one sentence roleplaying gets checked when the mechanics appear, and in another sentence he offers an example of how one informs the other. It seems self-contradictory.

Florid descriptions of your sword technique are not roleplaying, they are simply being descriptive. Just like a 5 minute description of your character's well tailored cothing is not roleplaying. Being descriptive is nice and all, but its not roleplaying.

If the characters in your examples are a duelist and a dandy respectively, then florid descriptions actually may be a significant part of roleplaying those characters.

I think that describing what your character does, and how, can be as much a part of roleplaying as what your character says.

Personally, I like to see roleplaying in combat, but it has nothing to do with verbosity. More making decisions based on your character's personality and feelings rather than just tactical considerations.

I agree that making tactical decisions based on your character's motivations, experiences, and so on is a big part of roleplaying.

I may be wrong here, but I don't get the impression that Dremmen is really advocating players extemporizing dramatic monologues everytime they search for a trap or swim a river, but rather advocating that roleplaying be imbued in all facets of the game - Hussar's example of a character spitting on his hands, hefting his axe, and taking a huge swing, then describing how that translates mechanically as a power attack, seems to fit a "narrativist" style of play without an excess of flowers.

One quick observation: the descriptions offered by Dremmen in the original post would be perfectly normal, and perhaps even expected, in a play-by-post game, IMX.

 

[Crothian]

Alright, fair enough. Just one question, do you give xp for good roleplaying encounters?

I give XP for all encouters as the DMG suggests.

 

[Crothian]

I think Zalgar7 is just saying that d20 does not encourage the roleplaying experience Dremmen is seeking. In that, he is absolutely correct.

But it doesn't discourage it either. I think d20 stays out of the way and allows people to role play how they like. I think Dremmen and the people playing the game need to do the encouraging.

 

[Illirion]

I hereby solemly excuse myself for being so childish while I play my D&D and describe the combat in my games by saying stuff like: "I take a swing at this bandit next to me to protect the wizard.", "I charge that minion!" and "I cast Searing Light." before rolling my d20. I now realise, thanks to your insightfull commentary, that, for not being a talented poet or a verbal novelist, I am an immature and foolish person and that playing a game like D&D is clearly not cut out for me. As a matter of fact I'm going to sell my PHB right away and go home to play WoW behind my computer. How could I even think of buying a rulebook like that and not seeing that it was actually the Guide to Descriptive Narration of Fictional Fightscenes. Thanks to your brilliant and enlightend point of vieuw, I know now that I will never be able to realise the true potential of this game. I'm sure the people at WotC will thank you dearly for ridding the gaming world of such a heresy to roleplaying games as is myself.

-Ilirion

 

[Flyspeck23]

Oh, since you seem to be a narrativist, why don't you try and read this article?
http://ptgptb.org/0026/narrativists.html
Even your favorite gaming style can really go totally wrong and be a pain in the ass.

A great article.

Thanks for sharing the link!

 

[twofalls]

I know it's tempting to think that people who enjoy a different style of play than what you enjoy simply haven't learned the lessons you've learned.

But the truth is we all learn DIFFERENT things from the same lessons. And what we enjoy depends largely on what we've learned we like.

The only rule is: If you're having fun, you're doing it right.

All else is nothing but taste.

Amen.

 

[Captain Tagon]

All I want to know is how did Player 1 go from gripping his battle axe to swinging a hammer.

 

[fafhrd]

All I want to know is how did Player 1 go from gripping his battle axe to swinging a hammer.

Weapon shift
Transmutation
Bard 2, sor/wiz 1
?