[Semi-rant] Why is two-weapon fighting more defensive than sword and board?

[Cbas10]

You know what gets on my nerves? The feats out there that raise the AC of two weapon fighters, when there's not a SINGLE feat for specifically for sword and board types. The only one, really, is Shield Expertise from S&F, which is just a way of letting them use TWF with a shield.

Let's compare the ACs of two builds trying to be defensive:

The sword-and-board fighter takes the only feats really available to him for raising AC: Expertise and Dodge.

The two weapon fighter takes Dodge, Twin Sword Style from Forgotten Realms and Improved Buckler Defense from Complete Warrior.

ACs: The Sword and Board fighter has a +3 AC bonus from his feats and his shield. He can spend to-hit bonuses to improve it.

The Two weapon fighter has... a +4 AC bonus from his feats and his shield.

Plus, the two weapon fighter gets an extra attack with his off hand (that attack has a -1 from the buckler, but it's better than the nothing that Mr. Sword and Board gets) .

Sure, the two weapon fighter spent an extra feat, but that's only because Mr. Sword and Board doesn't have any other defensive feats to buy. Even with an even number of feats, 2WFer has the same AC and more attacks.

Shouldn't the Sword-and-Board guy have a better AC, considering he's giving up the use of two weapons or a two-handed weapon?

I think things are perfectly okay as they are. Sure, the two-weapon fighter might have a better AC after blowing all sorts of feats. However (using fighters as an example), the Sword-n-shield guy can have an AC 2 points better than the 2WF guy WITHOUT spending any feats. If he wants to take a -2 penalty to hit, he can use a tower shield for another +2 to AC...still without using any feats. The 2WF guy must spend at least two feats in order to equal the AC bonus...PLUS he'll probably be taking some sort of additional penalty AND he must have a 15 Dexterity to even think about this (again...using fighters as an example).

If we compare a fighter with a shield and a ranger doing 2WF, the ranger is sacrificing a hit point or two AND cannot use the Combat Style while in Medium or Heavy armor.

In my experience, the best defense a two-weapon fighter has is an Active one. Using their extra attacks for Disarming, Tripping, and other such things is far more advantageous than just whacking away at something, hoping you don't get hit. Parrying (something WotC seems to have missed quite a bit) is virtually essential to the survival of lightly armored dual-swordsmen. This, too, is far more reliable than that AC stat on your sheet. By the way, gaining the benefit of a Buckler while using two weapons requires the use of yet ANOTHER feat.

Way down the line, once you hit 20th level or something insanely powerful, the 2WF characters significantly fall behind in combat, given equally distributed magic, hp/die, etc. They might have 3 more attacks than the sword-n-shield fighter, but you must consider the class features and/or feats involved in getting there. Spending all those resources is a complete waste if you do not correctly use the tactics that go along with it.

As for the two-hand weapon fighters...they are giving up additional AC for larger weapons, more damage, and a better defense against disarming.

No matter what "build" or character concept one goes with, each of them will have varying strengths and weaknesses. Why have a variety of classes and feats if all of them were meant to have the same capabilities in different situations? Sure, you can blow several levels' worth of class features and feats to have 54 attacks and an AC that approaches infinity. That would be one character's strength: being a Near-Untouchable Blender. The sword-n-board fighter might devote his resources elsewhere; having more knowledge about his enemies so that he could have a better strategy for defeating his enemies with a much smaller risk of actually entering life-threatening situations.

 

[Hardhead]

The thing is, if you're a fighter, you have the feats. If you're actively trying to build a defensive fighter, and take defensive feats, shouldn't sword and board be the best option?

What there needs to be is less feats for making TWFers good defensively (it should *not* be their forte) and more feats for helping out sword and board users, since it's already the worst fighter build.

 

[Cbas10]

The thing is, if you're a fighter, you have the feats. If you're actively trying to build a defensive fighter, and take defensive feats, shouldn't sword and board be the best option?

I certainly would not think so. Such a fighter is merely depending on the big slab of wood or iron in his off-hand for his defense. It is a simple tactic (thus, no need for feats) designed to defend himself from a number of attacks until he is ready to make his assault. Great for multiple opponents as well as single opponents. Additionally, with a Dexterity of 15 being needed for fighting and defending with two weapons, many warriors who focus on being able to wear heavy armor and carry shields (as well as enduring long and bloody combats) are simply unable to learn the advanced techniques.

What there needs to be is less feats for making TWFers good defensively (it should *not* be their forte) and more feats for helping out sword and board users, since it's already the worst fighter build.

Well, fighting with two weapons and becoming skilled with defending yourself at the same time is quite a difficult task, but is much more effective once you master it. It is a superior style of fighting, and the rules reflect this. It simply common sense and game balance wrapped up all in one package. 2WF characters spend more feats, get more attacks and get a better AC. Sword and shield characters have fewer attacks, have a worse AC, and spend fewer feats.

If a character truly wants to focus exclusively on defense, he should realize that there is far more to defending one's self than simply avoiding blows. Neutralizing your opponent, rendering his attacks invalid, and waiting for prime opportunities for making your attacks will keep a character alive far longer than a 172 AC. Opponents who find you impossible to hit will simply wait and find a weakness - since you will obviously have one if you have all of your effort tied into not being physically hit.

 

[EtherHulkRending]

if you really want to exploit both, you can two weapon fight with a longsword and armor spikes, and still use a shield for defense. Reading the description of armor spikes lets you do it. It's really dirty but at the same time it's also nice to get the extra attacks and the high AC.

 

[pawsplay]

Buckler, meet Dwarven Waraxe and Improved Sunder.

 

[^Graff]

Also, don't forget that the TWF fighter has a glaring weakness: although he may get 8 attacks in a round, he actually can't hit anything. Why? Because the penalties for fighting with two weapons offsets the multiple attacks. Giving lots of defensive feats to a TWF fighter means that he can't take any of the other really good feats, like power attack, cleave, trip, sunder, and disarm.

two weapon fightingf+improved two weapon fighting+greater two weapon fighting+perfect two weapon fighting+twin sword style+two weapon defense+Buckler defense=7 feats.

a swrod and board fighter can not only take the shield specialization, expertise, and dodge feats, he can take power attack, weapon focus, weapon spec, trip, disarm, etc. S&B is the more well-rounded of the styles.

 

[Ranger REG]

Also, don't forget that the TWF fighter has a glaring weakness: although he may get 8 attacks in a round, he actually can't hit anything. Why? Because the penalties for fighting with two weapons offsets the multiple attacks.

While it's true, but one have to remember the natural 1/20 rules still apply to attack rolls, no matter how heavy the penalties are.

a swrod and board fighter can not only take the shield specialization, expertise, and dodge feats, he can take power attack, weapon focus, weapon spec, trip, disarm, etc. S&B is the more well-rounded of the styles.

Does that means that sword-n-board fighting style is overpowered than single-weapon, two-weapon, and two-handed weapon fighting style? If that's the case, then why the favoritism?

 

[Hardhead]

Does that means that sword-n-board fighting style is overpowered than single-weapon, two-weapon, and two-handed weapon fighting style? If that's the case, then why the favoritism?

I doubt you'll find anyone to argue that. Sword and Board has the lowest damage output of any of the styles in D&D.

Well, fighting with two weapons and becoming skilled with defending yourself at the same time is quite a difficult task, but is much more effective once you master it. It is a superior style of fighting, and the rules reflect this. It simply common sense and game balance wrapped up all in one package.

(1) In real life, if you had a second weapon, you used it for defense, and if the opportunity presented itself, you struck. But you never initiated attacks with it.

(2) It's hardly a superior style. Historically, your elite fighters either went Sword and Sheild or single sword.

(3) This is D&D, not real life. All the archtypes should be equally viable.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Well, fighting with two weapons and becoming skilled with defending yourself at the same time is quite a difficult task, but is much more effective once you master it. It is a superior style of fighting, and the rules reflect this.

So superior that hardly anyone in history ever used it?

As far as I know, the only wide-spread TWF style was the use of the main gaunche in the off-hand, which was used exclusively for defense, the style itself used exclusively for duels.

Aside from that, Miyamoto Musashi developed a two-weapon style, but never used it in any of the numerous death-matches he had during his career.

Of course, I'm no historian. I'd be interested in learning about how TWF is historically "much more effective" than sword-and-board, or fighting with a single weapon...

 

[I'm A Banana]

I don't think TWF should be weak.

I just think Sword-and-Board should be just as strong.

Having the shield add cover instead of an armor bonus helps that a loooong way IMC. Cover is all sorts of goodness, and that's basically what a shield is....a little wall that you carry around.