Sense Motive - passive or active?

two said:
I was actually serious -- I'm curious.

How would you handle my "he went thattaway" example?

I guess if the players doubted the NPC's veracity they'd request Sense Motive rolls and if they succeeded I'd tell them whether the NPC seemed to be lying or not.

Likewise if a PC tells an NPC something the NPC doesn't usually roll Sense Motive against it; only if they're in a situation where they doubt the PC's veracity - in negotiations, say, or if it seemed inherently unlikely - would I require a Bluff roll. A con artist PC IMC certainly would benefit greatly from a high Bluff skill to fool NPCs, but there are cases where a PC could deceive an NPC without the NPC getting a sense motive roll, if what the PC said accorded with the NPC's expectations already so they had no reason to be suspicious.
 

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IceBear said:
The second smiley was a wink. Since you come across as smug and sarcastic (maybe you don't mean to, but it's how you come across to me)...

Naw, she's just German. :p

We're not trying to be hostile - your style of play is just as valid as ours. You should play the way you enjoy, don't let anyone else tell you it's inferior.
 

Just one super extreme example...

Let's say a kid (Bluff +0) talks to an epic bard (Sense Motive +100).

If the kid says something reasonable, the bard has no way to discern, that the kid is actually lying?

Bye
Thanee
 

Thanee said:
Just one super extreme example...

Let's say a kid (Bluff +0) talks to an epic bard (Sense Motive +100).

If the kid says something reasonable, the bard has no way to discern, that the kid is actually lying?

Bye
Thanee

If the bard PC requests a sense motive check, he gets the roll. If it's a case where the PC doesn't care, he won't request or get a roll. If the bard was actually interrogating the kid about something then most likely we'd roll sense motive to every statement.
 

Let's say a man the bard followed has run by the kid, and the bard asks the kid where he went; the kid pointed out a direction (but the wrong one, by intent).

Do you really want your players to have to point out the use of sense motive everytime?

And how can you actively sense motive, anyways, from a character point of view? Stare at them intensely, trying to make them nervous? ;)

Either you sense something, or you don't. It's just like listen or spot, just on an emotional level.

Bye
Thanee
 

I don't think I did miss the point.

Judging from your description of your game, social interaction makes up a big part of it. It's also quite clear that you expect players to make a fair show of acting "in character"--which usually means that there will be situations where the player's understanding of the right choice of action and the character's understanding of the right course of action differ. And in that situation, the player is expected to follow the character's lead.

It's quite possible in your game that NPCs don't often get exact scores for their active social skills. Maybe you look at Baron Nogoodnik's character sheet and it says: "Diplomacy good, bluff moderate." I presume it still has to say "Sense Motive +10" because "sense motive:good" doesn't tell you whether the PC's bluff roll of 25 succeeds or fails and nothing short of "sense motive: yes, every time" would enable you to determine whether he, as a reasonably insightful NPC can see through a player's good but not prefect lie. (I presume players still roll bluff checks for that sort of thing). However, that still has several inherent problems:

1. When Sense Motive is an active skill, the players may still ask for rolls. In that case, you'll need an exact bluff score if you're using it at all. With your method, if you don't roll the bluff at all before the sense motive is called for, it's not clear how you know whether to play Baron Nogoodnik's +5 bluff as a 6, 15, or 25--and it seems fairly clear to me that you usually DO play the interaction before the dice are rolled. Otherwise the "my name is/ Sense motive of 35, is he lying?" difficulty wouldn't seem so alien to your game. So, at some point, the mechanics will need to be in place. And with your method, the mechanics may not match what you played. If instead of Baron Nogoodnik, it's Councillor Liar with a +15 bluff making the check, you'll probably play him like it's a really good bluff--because he usually makes really good bluffs. But, if you roll a "1" on his bluff check when a PC calls for sense motive, the bluff you played as very effective is revealed to be pretty weak by the check.

Active sense motive doesn't remove the necessity for NPC bluff skills (though it may for diplomacy rolls). It just introduces a level of potential inconsistency between what the players see (which may be a very convincing bluff) and what their characters see (which may be a unusually bad lie from councillor liar).

2. It creates unnecessary character/player knowledge dichotomies. I consider myself reasonably insightful. I can often pick up when a story is inconsistent. On occasion, I enjoy playing a slack-jawed or smart but foolish barbarian. So, in your game, when my reasonable insight+knowledge of how you run the game (these are not really seperable items) indicates that an NPC is lying, I'm left with the question of whether my character knows what I know. Now, I could presume that my character is an idiot and doesn't know anything but it's always struck me as poor role-playing to assume that a character who isn't smart always does the worst possible thing. ("My character wouldn't know to try fire on these regenerating trolls" well, when he's grasping at straws to hurt something that isn't hurt by steel, why WOULDN'T he try fire. It's one of the obvious things to try). In order to resolve it, I could go on the basis of a sense motive roll but it will be tedious to try that on every possible lie I detect. (If sense motive is passive, there is a sharper distinction between player and character insight which makes this decision easier).

3. Sense Motive involves a lot of things that aren't actually discernable on a DM sitting down behind a table. For instance, in a PBEM, I once played a paladin who joined a troop of evil soldiers in order to determine whether or not they were responsible for an atrocity we had sworn to avenge. As I verbally duelled with their leader, I noticed that the bannerman kept fidgeting and shifting his grip. My thought: he's obviously quite new to the job if he hasn't figured out how best to hold the banner yet... or he's someone who isn't the normal banner man in disguise. As the game wore on, I discovered that I was right and he was actually a powerful wizard in disguise.

Sense motive acts on details like that. As a DM, you can include them in a verbal description and let the players figure them out. This however, has a couple of negative effects. First, describing these inconsistencies calls the players' attention to them in a way the characters' attention might not be. It assumes the PC made the sense motive, etc. Second, describing details makes the game take a lot longer since you'll have to put details in all encounters so that details don't become a de-facto indication of deception. Now some description for most encounters is good but with anything reasonably subtle, you don't want the inconsistency to be one of the three descriptive factors/NPC I've heard recommended for good DMing. So it necessitates going overboard or cheating the players out of clues their character should get.

4. An NPC may be like Schroedinger's cat and it may never be important to know if he's got a +12 diplomacy score or a +14. However, the difference between a +12 and a +14 bluff score WILL be important (as discussed above in consistency). Furthermore, even the schroedinger's cat like NPC will have good, better, or best diplomacy. There should be a difference between the guy with a +20 score, the guy with a +25 score, a +30, and a +35. (All of which are achievable by mid-levels--not that PCs don't interact with high-level NPCs from day 1).

5. Both PCs and NPCs are still constrained by the limit of the player and DMs' acting abilities.

I understand that some people shouldn't play some characters. I'm also pained when a stutterer tries to play James Bond or Captain Blood. However, I don't think one needs to be Sean Connery, Pierce Brosnan, or Errol Flynn (and have a crew of writers giving you a script) to play those characters either. This means that, assuming that you and your players are reasonably skilled actors, etc, the best your game will be able to approximate is reasonable skill. If you want, William Jennings Brian, Hannibal Lector, Johnathan Edwards, Savanarolla, Loki, Daniel Ocean, etc in your game, you're going to have to let the dice do a fair amount of the work.

6. I still think your system falls prey to what others have been referring to as the "he went that way" syndrome. Presumably either everyone asks for a sense motive check in that situation or you try to act it out. However, acting like a mediocre liar who half the party MIGHT detect in a lie is a very challenging task and I doubt that anyone is up to that kind of thing on a moment's notice. Generally, it will either be too obvious or too good.

S'mon said:
ElderBasilisk - nice rant, I'm impressed!

I think you're missing the point. For us the rules, including NPC stats, are there to support the GM's running of the game, not vice versa. No NPC 'has' a +30 Diplomacy score unless we actually give them a +30 to a Diplomacy role when it's rolled in play. Rules are primaily for players, for their PCs, to help them interact with the environment, and for the GM when they need a rules calling on something - combat, especially, can benefit from complex rules. So a PC can have '+25 Diplomacy' - that means they'll always roll +25 on d20 Diplomacy checks; but NPCs are more like Schrodinger's cats, you can't nail them down until & unless their stats are actually used - of course we normally detail combat stats, at least, and we aim to be consistent in our rulings. For us the rules are not a Platonic Ideal that defines the universe, merely an aid to running a good RPG.
 

Maybe it would be a good idea to just try it? :)

Make sense motive along with listen and spot a passive skill.

Whenever there is an opportunity to get some clue with the sense motive skill, make a roll as explained above (either for all characters, or just the best, or simply assume take 10 (write down the PC's scores in listen, spot and sense motive, that's really not too much work)).

Now, present the situation to them based on the information you got.

For example, if the PCs got a clue, then roleplay it accordingly, or cover it in the description of the NPC.

Then, if you don't like it... just continue to make it as you do it now.

Bye
Thanee
 

In case it gets lost in the long posts after it, I'd like to restate:

My Nature Witch in S'mon's Borderlands game has ranks not only in Diplomacy but also in Intimidate, a cross-class skill for her. And I get to use both. A lot.
I'm curious how exactly you do this, mechanically, in your games. If you don't roll skill checks for social skills, how do you "use" ranks in Diplomacy and Intimidate in the game?

Quasqueton
 

We roll lots of skill checks for social skills - either at player's request or GM's request. We tend not to let the roll dominate though, but it can help determine whether an attempt succeeds if it's not clear from context whether it would or not. Last night in SB's game I got a 27 on an Intimidate check vs a low-level Cleric, a good roll, but I still couldn't get him to turn over his prisoner (a PC who was killed in the subsequent rescue attempt) because the context didn't support it - he didn't know my PC was a LG honourable type who'd have kept her word not to kill him if he complied, or to rip his entrails out if the captive was harmed (much entrail-ripping followed).

I dunno, I can't seem to justify our approach to Rules Forum interrogation, all I can say is that it seems to work for us. I'm sure we're deviating from the RAW. That doesn't particularly bother me. For most NPCs BTW I _do_ have fully detailed existing NPC sheets w full skill lists - but it may well happen that in play I realise that my vision of the NPC doesn't comply with what's been written down, in which case I'll change what's written down, whether that's lowering STR or raising Diplomacy skill. In most cases +25 and +30 Diplomacy are effectively identical to me BTW (ie highly diplomatic), the difference would only matter if 2 similarly-skillful diplomatists were competing eg in negotiations, when the +5 of one would give them the edge.
 
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S'mon said:
I can't seem to justify our approach to Rules Forum interrogation...

That sounds so mean... hope you don't mind all those questions.

As I said, just try it with the passive skill use, if you like. It really only leads to more character-driven roleplaying (as the character's abilities have a little more influence in what happens opposed to the player's and the roleplaying can be based on those abilities) and has no bad side-effects. :)

S'mon said:
For most NPCs BTW I _do_ have fully detailed existing NPC sheets w full skill lists...

Funny enough, I don't write down anything about the NPCs when I DM, except in rare circumstances. I decide upon the stats when they are needed (yes, my memory is good enough so I do not change them all the time :p), I just have the vision, who the NPC is and go from there. ;)

Bye
Thanee
 

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