D&D 5E Separating Knowledge from Skill (+)

[Seramus]

Double Post

 

[DND_Reborn]

What about a Con skill based on alertness? Not sure how it would work and I am just spitballing here, but while on guard being able to stay focused and alert in order to perceive dangers. Not sure. Con skills are hard.

Can confirm. Trying to stay awake and alert for long periods of time is surprisingly brutal. Especially when fatigue sets in and the world starts spinning, you can barely keep your head up, your arms and legs get shaky, and you still have 4 more hours to go!

Alertness is really active perception as I see it.

Not to say having to make a CON check at some point because you are trying to stay awake wouldn't happen, but I don't see CON itself as being tied to your ability to perceive and be aware of your surroundings?

 

[Seramus]

Alertness is really active perception as I see it.

Not to say having to make a CON check at some point because you are trying to stay awake wouldn't happen, but I don't see CON itself as being tied to your ability to perceive and be aware of your surroundings?

Hard to say! On the one hand, maintaining a high level of alertness is extremely hard and grueling, above and beyond maintaining a normal level of casual alertness. But in D&D we kind of assume characters are always working at superhuman levels of basic output - always watching in 360', always generally alert and keeping their shields in a state of quantum readiness, fully rested after just 6 hours of sleep with no long term penalties for doing so day after day, etc.

If I was a D&D character I would sleep 9 hours, and tell the DM to give me a rank of exhaustion if I slept any less!

 

[GMMichael]

Con skills are hard.

There's a reason for this. It's rooted in the definitions, relationship, and design goals of abilities and skills. A square peg - round hole sort of reason.

. . . The pitfall to that, of course, is players trying to come up with nonsensical ways of using a particular ability which is high with a skill that is appropriate.

If I wanted to remove ability scores from skills completely, something like that could work. . .

If you're playing D&D as intended (RAI), there's no way for a player to "(use) a particular ability," because the DM calls for ability checks, not the player.

The above problem(s) goes away when you do indeed remove ability scores, and play 5e as a skill-based game.

Given this is a + thread, and I have only a loose understanding of what that means...

Constitution

• Ale Drinking (for tavern contests)
• Binge Eating (to avoid needing rations)
• Running
  

 

[Umbran]

The more you answer the more you show you are utterly ignorant you are.

Mod Note:
Insulting folks will not get you anywhere good.
Please find a thread that doesn't incite you to behave so poorly. You won't be posting any further in this one.

 

[Krachek]

Yeah, I understand that, and although I am "listing these under an ability" I am a firm believer in the mix-and-match use of ability and skills, like the classic Strength (Intimidation) instead of Charisma (Intimidation). By playing ability off of skill and vice versa, you can achieve some of the variability of having skills relying on more than one ability IME.

The pitfall to that, of course, is players trying to come up with nonsensical ways of using a particular ability which is high with a skill that is appropriate.


If I wanted to remove ability scores from skills completely, something like that could work. I think it has been suggested (perhaps by you?) in other threads when people argue for killing the sacred cow that is abilities.

I wouldn’t suggest to remove ability scores from DnD. Sacred cow are immovable by definition!
This thread open up a can of worm, the more we dig in the relation of skills and abilities the more we find new applications.
so keep in mind we are speaking of a game, and use all those new links to make better call during game play.

 

[toucanbuzz]

I went old-school with AD&D proficiencies for ideas, and wow, CON isn't attached to much that a character would use. Some of these are covered by others already.

CON

Deep Diving (base 5E books and one module have rules on pressure and cold already, though. In AD&D, this allowed one to move faster while swimming straight down and have improved holding breath).
Drinking / Eating (excessive amounts in order to win hot dog eating contests?)
Endurance (fits with running, but to perform continuous strenuous activity longer than others for when you get captured in Dark Sun and forced to work on the ziggurats)

Knowledge

Appraisal (depends if you speed things up by giving PCs the true value of their gems and art goods and have vendors be totally honest with them by giving them the exact amount things are worth)
Engineering (how mechanical things work)
Laws / Bureaucracy (same as above)
Linguistics (how languages work, perhaps able to glean a pattern in foreign runes/worlds to get something, to interpret dialects easily, to adopt a foreign place's accent)
Local History (different from global history, ability to quickly gather who's who, who's doing who, and what's what in most towns).
Nobility (might merge into heraldry)

Additional INT skill:

Reading lips (proficient only)

 

[Baron Opal II]

I would consider moving Swim to Constitution, and replacing it with Lifting- a Feat of Strength, BBLG kind of thing.

For the third Constitution skill I would consider Endurance- Forced Marches, enduring adverse weather, and the like.

I really like Insight being Wisdom based allowing intuitive reading of other people. But, I can see using Intelligence as the "perceive the world around me" stat. With moving Perception and Investigation to INT, I take it you find enough difference to not merge the skills?

I'm wholly with you on the Influence skill, and Wisdom for animal interaction skills. You have to guess when they can't talk.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I would consider moving Swim to Constitution, and replacing it with Lifting- a Feat of Strength, BBLG kind of thing.

There's a good chance we might do this. I am meeting with players tomorrow to discuss.

For the third Constitution skill I would consider Endurance- Forced Marches, enduring adverse weather, and the like.

We already have an endurance feature that allows you ignore levels of exhaustion, but I might go this route and make it a "skill" for CON so you would make a check to ignore the exhaustion instead of it being automatic.

I really like Insight being Wisdom based allowing intuitive reading of other people. But, I can see using Intelligence as the "perceive the world around me" stat. With moving Perception and Investigation to INT, I take it you find enough difference to not merge the skills?

Yeah, Insight is a tough one in some ways. You see "smart" people you are oblivious to social cues, etc. but I am trying to find "skills" for INT and that seemed like I could move it to favor Rogues over Clerics. Not that it matters for Clerics anymore, since we have made Clerics CHA-based casters... so maybe moving Insight to CHA would be better?

I see enough difference in Perception and Investigation to not merge them, although it is borderline.

The more I think about it, the more I might just abandon skills and use the Ability variant in the DMG in its place.

I'm wholly with you on the Influence skill, and Wisdom for animal interaction skills. You have to guess when they can't talk.

I want it one way or the other. Influence could be Deception, Intimidation, and Persuasion, just as Athletics could be Climbing, Jumping, Swimming (or Lifting), etc. It bothers me that CHA is such an important ability to so many classes now... Call me old-school went CHR was the dump stat.

 

[Baron Opal II]

The more I think about it, the more I might just abandon skills and use the Ability variant in the DMG in its place.

I want it one way or the other. Influence could be Deception, Intimidation, and Persuasion, just as Athletics could be Climbing, Jumping, Swimming (or Lifting), etc. It bothers me that CHA is such an important ability to so many classes now... Call me old-school went CHR was the dump stat.

The variant escapes me at the moment.

I know, right? All you needed it for was hench and wandering monsters, and now it's critical! Kids these days...