Sexism in Table-Top Gaming: My Thoughts On It, and What We Can Do About It

[Celebrim]

A man can't speak for women? Since when?

I find that I can't speak for anyone but myself.

"We" don't need to appoint anyone. What "we" need is different from case to case.

I believe that was my point.

So while "we" may not need protection in a generalized way - yes, the victims of violence and sexism usually do.

The two aren't equal sets.

And because there is no way of knowing what past experiences people have, it should be common sense not to allow blantant sex and violence in any game unless it was clearly, unmistakenly marked as such.

Sure. And if that was the entirety of the essay under discussion, I would have nothing to quibble about except, "What does blatant mean in this context?" And if this is only about labeling, would it be enough to simply have some sort of content rating system? Should it be voluntary or should there be some committee that decides what should be labeled as potentially offensive?

 

[Celebrim]

So all in all this does not look like a big deal for a lot of people I'm sure.

If I had a group belittling another player for any reason, as a DM - and a friend - I'd consider it a big deal. What I'd do about it would probably depend on the particular people involved, but I'd address it.

There is some teasing that goes on in my group, which at the moment - being drawn from a group of developers - is all male. One of my players is of IRL lawful inclination, while most of the group is IRL of a more chaotic bent. The player also has low self-esteem, and being teased plays off his low self-esteem. Those are issues I need to address as friend and a GM. It doesn't matter what the gender is. But its also true that some of the teasing is intended to be good natured. In a lot of groups - I used to work construction while my wife was in school - being teased and tested like that is normal. People want to see how you react to it. I can't say what was going in this group, I wasn't there - it doesn't sound like good fun. But if I was advising my girls how to handle being teased, it would be to try to handle it with humor and bravado - even if it made you really uncomfortable.

I see disparagement of people by people as normal. But that is not the same as believing it is right and proper. There is much that is normal in the world that I don't wish to be so.

and some times players felt uncomfortable and didn't dare to say anything because it was all "in good fun."

Sometimes it's not clear why people don't say anything. I would certainly not believe because "it's all in good fun" would be the only reason. Sometimes people are afraid they'll make things worse. Sometimes they just want to avoid conflict. Sometimes they think that it would be better to address it privately. I don't know. The real world is very complicated.

 

[seti]

A form of gamer sexism my wife has noticed, and mentioned, is the "Oh, how cute, a girl is playing. Let me help you." stuff. She knows the rules, guys. Back off. In fact, playing 4e, she's got her actions picked before it's even her turn. None of that "Umm...hmmm...what should I do?" stuff.

Now, we play with another couple, so there's 2 guys and two women at the table, and we're all close friends. No problems at all, there. But, FLGS play and Con play has created issues.

I walked out of a session once. It was at the FLGS. The DM didn't want a gay guy to play a gay character. He thought it was 'too silly' or something...I guess he was imagining this guy hitting on other male PCs? I have no clue. But, yeah...I thought that was some uncalled for discrimination, and complained to the owner of the shop. He agreed, and that one DM doesn't DM there anymore.

The stereotype of the fat smelly neck-bearded misogynistic male gamer needs to end too, though. Just like any other group, some gamers are jerks. Some are awesome, polite, open-minded, caring people.

Most modern game books handle it well, in my experience. Using 'he' and 'she' in rule books, and the chain mail bikini isn't as prevalent as it used to be. But it's still there sometimes. Unless it's an illustration of a monster like a succubus; there's no aesthetic excuse for showing all sorts of cleavage and thigh. But it should go both ways. The incubus illustration should look like a male stripper/romance novel cover as well, then. Games still need to work on the multicultural art, however. I want to see more variety in skin tone. Not just for humans, but all the fantasy races. Why aren't elves ever Indian or Ethiopian or Japanese in illustrations?

 

[Celebrim]

Ok, so I'm done fighting with you (for now). Feel free to take up the steel again, and cross pens if you want.

This is obviously a topic you care a great deal about. If you want to write a great essay on sexism in gaming, do the following:

a) Get rid of the links or at least change the way you use them. Almost everyone is stronger in their own words than referencing someone else. Most of the links detract from your point rather than strengthen it, and you are also importing the opinions of those writers and by inference the writer's they link to. You can stand on your own. You can write a better essay than the one you link to in 'this is historical', and you can organize your points better and more selectively than the sites you link to. The only reason to have a link is when you are doing an in line footnote. The list of links is lazy.

b) Avoid the subject of rape. Speaking of lazy, invoking rape to make your point is pretty high on the list of lazy writing. If you really want to make a point about rapes depiction at the table, only go there if you can clearly show cases of writers normalizing, glorifying, or justifying the act of rape. Merely depicting rape in a negative way might be done in a way that is too graphic or pornographic, but that is a separate issue from sexism except when the author is actually doing that as part of an explicitly sexist ideology (see FATAL). If you can find examples in gaming of rape being normalized or glorified, that makes a strong point - but you are also likely to find it is a point that doesn't help your overall thesis since most tables even if they have a problem with sexism aren't likely to take it to that level (and if they do, they are probably beyond reach anyway).

c) Stay on target. You bring a whole laundry list of political issues and assumptions along with what you want to say about sexism. The more issues you try to address, the more you dilute your point and the more points of disagreement you potentially create with your audience. As a related point, don't defend 'feminism' if what you are really trying to accomplish is keeping sexism off the table. Feminists are an abstract group, like corporations, boy scouts, the catholic church, and government. Feminism is a controversial topic even among women, and even within feminism. I personally am rather sympathetic to the arguments of Christina Sommers in that somewhere along the line the movement got derailed from its original agenda. Bringing it up becomes another distraction. What you want to be defending is people. A really good essay might involve anecdotes of real girl gamers, not a diatribe about your stand on feminism. If you can make it personal, that's great too. Honesty is attractive and invokes empathy. A slightly less good but better essay would appeal to the women the readers know, or to their own experience. And maybe you can also write a great essay on racism in gaming, but this isn't it. You've bitten off more enough for one essay just in discussing sexism.

d) Be clear and specific. If you are going to advocate for sensitive depictions in gaming materials, you better define what the standards are and how to achieve them. Don't assume your standards are accepted or understood, because they aren't. There has to be a level that you can be satisfied at, otherwise you come off as puritanical and impossible to please and vaguely advocating censorship. And people have to be persuaded that your standards are good ones and worthy of adopting. Clearly define what you mean by sexism, sexual harassment, and so forth. Allow for the fact that we can make each other uncomfortable incidentally, and discuss what we do about it either as the uncomfortable party or the party that has incidentally given offense. And as a related note, be very clear and careful when providing examples. If 'WoD: Gypsies' is inherently racist don't just presume everyone is familiar with it and accepts your claims. This is a sub-thesis you need to discuss in detail, compare with your standards, and prove as a conclusion. And you better be prepared to demonstrate that the Vistani of Ravenloft aren't or are equally as racist by the standard you are using. But again, it's not even clear to me that WoD: Gypsies belongs in this essay, and not in another one if this is about sexism (unless the book is also very sexist, I'm not that familiar with it). So tell me about that Nibovian Wife monster and exactly why I should be offended by what is apparently a figure of horror, and why it is wrong for horror to have a sexual component to it? Given the implicit sexuality of Dracula, would Vampires fail by the same standard? Why or why not? Don't assume everyone understands what you are trying to say because the whole point is not everyone has your perspective. That's why you are writing, right?

 

[Le Noir Faineant]

*Unlurk.*

I think an important distinction has to be made between sexist stories, and sexist gamers.

Sexist adventure scenarios can, as a principle, serve a narrative purpose, if the party can handle it. The distinction of what is and what is not appropriate should depend on the circumstances, as with any work of fiction.

Now, sexist gamers, that's a different thing: Frankly, if there is somebody on your table who doesn't know how to treat other people with respect, start hanging out with other people.


That all said, I, as a man, feel pretty offended by the semantic booby-trap (hehe) that discussions about the topic tend to become: To generally assume that any display of male, or, for that matter, virile behavior is either a conscious or an unconscious act of sexism, is equally sexist.
Furthermore, I personally think that there are many immature women who trick themselves into thinking that they receive personal disrespect because of their gender, while they're really receiving disrespect because they behave like idiots. It's just that the idea that being the victim of a chauvinist conspiracy is endlessly more comfortable than to think that one is being held accountable for one's own actions...

 

[Lwaxy]

*Unlurk.*

Furthermore, I personally think that there are many immature women who trick themselves into thinking that they receive personal disrespect because of their gender, while they're really receiving disrespect because they behave like idiots.

My former work place in a nutshell.

 

[Elf Witch]

It is not fair to generalize about either sex. And there are stupid woman behaving like jerks the same as there are men who do the same thing.

Harassment and sexism is not either of the above. Take the harassment many female cosplays and other woman get at cons. It is not flirting, it is not deserved because they are dressed in attention gathering costumes. Walking up to a complete stranger and telling her she has great boobs and would like to come to my room and sit on my face is not flirting it is crude and off putting. Then following the woman around to the point that she starts to worry for her safety is called stalking.

Some cons have started throwing out guys who behave this way and if the story of the female cosplayer biting someone on the neck and drawing blood is true then she should be thrown out of the con as well.

Woman are not delicate snowflakes but we do worry more than men do about being sexually assaulted. Yes men can and do get raped but woman are the victims far more especially if you take out the rape statistics of prison.


I know I was taught a different kind of safety than my brothers. Talking to other woman most were raised the same way. Most rape cases in the news are woman. Colleges warn young woman about the dangers of drinking around men you don't know well. We are taught to watch our drinks at clubs to avoid being roofied.

People suffering from PTSD have triggers and there is no way to completely protect yourself from them. That being said if violence is a trigger playing RPGs might not be the best hobby. It is pretty apparent that almost all have some form of combat mechanic. But rape is not something I assume is going to be in a game. I do think that putting rape scenarios in published material is a mistake. A rape survivor walking in to play at a con or at a store may be completely blind sided to face a rape scenario. What goes on at home games where people know each other is a totally different matter.

 

[MJS]

Sexism, and racism for that matter, exist. We don't need to prove that here. It is a given, and we should listen to each other, especially those belonging to historically suppressed populations, to eliminate it from our games. Which most everyone is doing, and I applaud.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Boobs are not the issue I have absolutely no problem with a barbarian going topless as long as she is not living in the frozen wasteland. The issue with chain mail armor and other stripper armor is that it shown being worn on fighter/paladin types. The litmus test for this is simple would this kind of armor be appropriate for a male character to wear.

There was a reason national geographic which ad pictures of topless woman was allowed in schools and Playboy is not it is how the material is presented.

Well said. A few years back, the players in my game were going to encounter a potential ally in a female warrior type. When making major NPCs, I try to find a decent picture online to give the players a visual (example: Liam Cunningham as Davos Seaworth was a world weary cleric NPC) However, when trying to find one of a woman dressed in realistic armor and I could not - so I actually posted here and somebody pointed me to some website about "women in realistic armor" and I finally found some good choices. Most of my original searches seemed to find women in chainmail bikini tops, or women in form fitting armor that was designed for Dolly Parton.

I agree with you on the situation as well - a female barbarian that is topless or in a leather/hide bikini is fine. However, a female paladin should not be dressed in the chainmail bikini outfit if a male paladin would not don a skimpy chain shirt.

Sexism is an issue in gaming, though it has been getting better over the years. Heck, I've also found that most guys are thrilled to have a woman (or women) in the group, but there has been a minority that are not so welcoming, or just not used to being around women. Back in the late 90s, a gamer in my old group had his girlfriend join us midway through the campaign. It was a huge group with the DM and 10 players, so I didn't notice anything unusual... however, later on, I found out that another guy that had joined the group a month earlier was leering at her so intensely that it made her uncomfortable, but she was too shy to call him out at the table. The DM booted the leering guy out of the group between sessions because of it. I've heard similar stories from other women gamers over the years.

 

[Le Noir Faineant]

I would greatly appreciate if people would stop mixing up sexual harassment and sexism. This, I find extremely offensive towards men. Some posters here have written six or seven letter-sized pages of text on male sexism; what about discussing female double standards, while we're at it?

For example, the fantasies expressed in the worldwide bestseller Shades of Grey dwarf any display of sexual encounters I have ever witnessed in any game. Yet, it's socially acceptable, for whatever reason. But, no, we sexist pigs, having our dungeon-looting party of dwarves and hobbits celebrate in the Waterdeep whorehouse, that is so GROSS!