Sexism in your campaign settings

[S'mon]

Can you or Stalking blue give some specific example within the context of the campaign that is making the female players feel so out of place in the campaign world?

I don't know, an example would probably help me too.

 

[Thanee]

LotR is only egalitarian because there were no women to be sexist towards.

And that's, btw, because Tolkien was very much a sexist himself.

But it was quite some time ago. I guess this was just normal back then.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Teflon Billy]

...Our only two examples of women who did absolutely ANYTHING, were Galadriel and Arwen, who were elves and so don't really count...

Eowyn kind of seemed to be in the middle of things.

 

[Thanee]

Hi Thanee - yes this is right of course, the PCs are very much powers to be reckoned with and I should aim to get that across more in-game.

It should at the very least grant them some respect amongst the mighty.

The corollary though is that the PCs need to 'step on up' to their potential - my approach has been that if PCs seem unsure of themselves, NPCs pick up on that.

That's fine, but if it is - as it certainly seems to me - more of an OOC problem at this moment (player feeling uncomfortable (with the situation, not with you, obviously ) and thus playing character in an unsure way), you should try to see beyond that for a while, I guess.

I should prob look more to Diplomacy etc rolls to obviate possible problems there (rem our previous discussion?)

Of course, I do.

You don't really need to roll it, tho, just keeping an eye on the stats and not only (both, in fact) the way, the player acts, is usually sufficient.

Bye
Thanee

 

[randomling]

Hi - I'm the other of S'mon's players who had concerns about sexism in his game.

For me, the difficulty is feeling that, even with effort, I can't achieve with my female rogue PC the things that male players with their male PCs achieve with much less effort or none at all. As a player I'm certainly on the less assertive side, and the background for my PC wasn't ideal to start with, but I've since worked to start making her a force to be reckoned with on the political stage, but I feel dissatisfied with the progress I've made. (The lack of progress is probably as much to do with my shortcomings as a player with limited political savvy in S'mon's high-politics game as it is to do with sexism, however.) In addition, it feels as if it would be impossible - or at least suicide in game-participation terms - to play certain types of character in this game, such as a big, brash female melee fighter or barbarian. Male melee fighters or barbarians, are the most prestigious character type to play in the setting, and find it stunningly easy to make their way in the campaign world.

This is compounded by feeling ignored at the table - my role recently seems to be expected to scout for the party (that's natural, I'm the rogue) but find it impossible to be heard (or my ideas dismissed) when it comes to political discussions or even tactical planning. I also play in StalkingBlue's game with some of the same players, where I have a strong voice at the table and feel like I can make genuine good contributions, and the more I play in that game the more dissatisfied I become in S'mon's game. It's even more frustrating to see that StalkingBlue has strikingly similar experiences, which are apparently shared by no male player in the group.

On the subject of female NPCs - I've seen few in S'mon's game who are in genuine positions of power. Even in cases where they (apparently) have real power elsewhere, they are often presented to us as being defined by the powerful men in their lives, which (when playing a single and independent female PC) I find difficult. It's possible to create power for a female PC with no apparent NPC role models to draw on, but incredibly difficult to gauge the potential effect of that or how far I can get. I'm a feminist in real life - it doesn't mean I want to kickstart a first wave of feminism in S'mon's campaign setting.

My 2cp turned into several gold, there....

 

[S'mon]

In addition, it feels as if it would be impossible - or at least suicide in game-participation terms - to play certain types of character in this game, such as a big, brash female melee fighter or barbarian.

I'm not sure I understand why this is, since there are certainly some NPC female fighters; 'Red' Ivy got made a Captain of Gaxmoor recently. Cho was a female PC Monk who could certainly hold her own in melee and (to my mind) certainly commanded respect.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Hmmm....

I don't know if this helps, but IMC I designed a prevelant human group that was matriarchal -- all of the really important positions belong to women. Not only did this not pose a problem for my (all male) players, but most of the human characters belong to this group, and two of the half-human characters have had their human parent belong to this group (the Lakashi). I gave rules reasons why someone might select a Lakashi character (despite their not having discovered the secret of iron, they can have totem spirits), and for being female (better totem spirits). I now have two female Lakashi characters, and anther waiting in the wings.

Meanwhile, my main "fantasy-midieval" culture is male-dominated in a fairly "soft" manner. Other cultures may share power, or be male- or female-dominated. Within each culture, however, there are "power sects" that try to usurp the current power structure, and where gender divides occur, these power sects may be based on gender. Example: Orcish culture is male-dominated, but there exists a cult of female shamans that wields tremendous power among the orcs. A reverse of this is true among the Lakashi: There is a cult of male shamans who dress as females and take on female roles to improve their status.

Good gaming!

RC

 

[StalkingBlue]

So, what exactly do you do when one of the female PC's says something?

Do you have the NPC's say stuff "What does a woman know about battle and politics?" or "Get thee to the kitchen."



What exactly does the group do?

For some reason, I picture the male players in your group all going silent and just staring in disbelief at Stalking Blue for even daring to speak. Then making comments such as "know your place woman, speak when spoken to" or just ignoring her and going back to their discussion.

I've never heard of a woman being so uncomfortable at the gaming table while actually roleplaying. Usually some geek male gamer is hitting on them or making lewd comments.

Can you or Stalking blue give some specific example within the context of the campaign that is making the female players feel so out of place in the campaign world?

It is not that blatant. If it were I'd have left the game quickly - I have no time for people who so simply and obviously don't play in my league.

I've been a bit hesitant to post examples here for two reasons:

Firstly because, as we all know from similar threads on these boards, examples involving specific individuals tend to invite nasty comments and pointing of myriads of fingers against those individuals regardless of whether that is productive or even appropriate in the circumstances. I don't want to start a flame war against any indidual in the game, I don't even see any of the regulars as specifically more guilty than anyone else.

Secondly the roots of my problem (and apparently, as I've only very recently learnt, randomling's problem as well) in the game are subtle and manifold. If it were a matter of individual, spaced-out, clearly defined challenges that can be overcome by quick wit, a laugh or a display of superior power, I'd be able to deal with them, as I do in real life. They are not. It's more that - at least to my perception - underlying sexism appears to pervade every level of the game.

S'mon himself says that the campaign area is sexist against women, yet the examples that I have mentioned to him to explain how I see his world and how I feel in his game seem to be met by either of two replies: that I'm making incorrect assumptions about the few non-marginal female NPCs we encounter, and/or that the failure of my PCs to get a foot on the ground is due not so much to their gender as to their being mistrusted as foreigners, wearing the wrong kind of clothes etc., and to my own failure to recognise opportunities and grasp them "as a male player would".
Ironically enough at the same time I'm being criticised for being too demanding and oppositional - a sure sign that my communication habits are, if anything, self-assured and masculine rather than wiltingly feminine. (Usually that helps me get on well with men and in male-dominated environments btw, but apparently not here.)

We also have at least one male player (male PC, big nasty weapon of course) who appears to be getting positions of command and rulership fairly thrust on him without making any RP effort whatsoever. Don't get me wrong - he's more than welcome to it if that makes him happy, which it very obviously does. I welcome everything that helps bring out a PC's personality and make them cooler, in my perfect world we should all be stars. What frustrates me that at the same time I am told I'm failing to "step on up" and grasp and exploit opportunities that I don't even see, so I'm made to feel it's my own (implied) inadequacy that prevents my success in the game. That is even more frustrating when it's already been admitted that the campaign is set in a sexist setting that makes success harder to achieve for female PCs.

 

[StalkingBlue]

I'm not sure I understand why this is, since there are certainly some NPC female fighters; 'Red' Ivy got made a Captain of Gaxmoor recently. Cho was a female PC Monk who could certainly hold her own in melee and (to my mind) certainly commanded respect.

Hm. Cho was my first PC and the first source of my frustration. AIR not a single NPC ever so much as spoke a word to her, while the male melee PCs with the big weapons were eminently visible and respected. At the time I let myself be persuaded into believing that it was my failure in designing a character who'd be underestimated by NPCs - a foreigner, a person wearing humble clothes, a warrior highly focussed on her art.

After several more months of playing experience with my current PC, whom I made in discussion with S'mon for the specific purpose of being able to hold her own on the political stage and who I believe (correct me, S'mon) easily has the best social interaction skills in the party, I'm no longer so sure.


Red Ivy is an attractive redhead, an NPC fighter we occasionally hire when we need additional frontliners. She is the one and only female warrior type I've noticed who has any form of military command in the area. When at the recent political conference I mentioned earlier candidates for the War Leader against an impending war were brought up, there wasn't so much as a woman in sight.

 

[Nisarg]

In the end, I think it's important to note that playing in a sexist culture is inherently sexist in real life, because it forces a female gamer to choose between playing her own sex, or being treated as an equal in the game world, while a male player can play his own sex without any negative RP repercussions.

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On the surface, you would appear to be right. However, upon some consideration, your argument is incorrect.

The crux of the matter is that RPGs are "games". They are simulations, in other words, of social environments. If you are roleplaying in a time, world, or setting where sexism is an inherent part of the culture, then it is the responsibility of the simulationi, for accuracy, to represent that.

What you are arguing above would imply that an historian, when writing a book about the civil war, should re-write history to imply that there was no slavery, because to do otherwise would "disempower" modern day blacks who read his work.
Or that a playwright penning a historical drama about ancient rome should have a female emperor, even though there wasn't one, because otherwise women would feel unequal.
Or that a movie production of Henry V, or Lord of the Rings, should show female soldiers, even where there wern't any in the original stories, because to do otherwise would be insensitive.

Historical revisionism is never a solution to anything. Usually if a female actress complained because she didn't have the option of playing the King in the medieval play, you would suggest to her that she either accept it as part of the need to create an accurate simulation, or that she go find another play to be in if she really doesn't like this one.
With roleplaying its the same.

Nisarg