Sexism in your campaign settings

[fafhrd]

StalkingBlue, you seem clever and well reasoned and I doubt that our advice is likely to be anything you haven't tried. Be that as it may, my only suggestion is this: if the world doesn't fit, change it. Your party is significant enough that each member should be a power in the world. To reference the oft cited Song of Ice and Fire, take a look at Daenerys Stormborn(if you haven't read it, I heartily recommend). She starts the series as little more than a child, and others treat her as such. Yet in the midst of a world almost entirely dominated by men, she learns to lead and her rise to power is that much more captivating because of the struggle. She reinvents her role and the world is forced to accomodate.

I find revisionism apocryphal, but that says nothing to the possibility of changing the future. If you haven't yet conceeded, I'd like to think there's a great opportunity there. The hardest fought struggles are the ones worthy of remembering.

 

[Gnarlo]

Our survey said... *buzzzzzzz*

As I understand it, S'mon's game is not

a) a historical text about an actual period,
b) a historical play about an actual kingdom, or
c) a movie production about a pre-existing novel or literary work.

It is a game set in a pre-existing game world, yes, but one that supposedly was created for the purpose of having other people enjoy playing in it (although I know that there is a subset of GMs out there that enjoy the creation of campaigns purely for the joy of making the settings).

In my own case, if I created a setting that I wanted others to play in and enjoy, and both female members of my group came up to me and said that the in-game environment was creating a condition that was building up to them not being able to enjoy themselves due to the sexism in the game, I would take a long hard look at the conditions of my campaign. Afterall, I only create these things in order for my players and myself to have fun, not because I'm trying to achieve a historical simulation.

 

[Iuz]

Eowyn is certainly the victim of sexism and overcomes it. ("I am no man!" *slice*) I think this disproves the notion the middle earth is wholly egalitarian, and shows that Tolkien was aware of and sympathetic to the plight of women.

 

[GSHamster]

We also have at least one male player (male PC, big nasty weapon of course) who appears to be getting positions of command and rulership fairly thrust on him without making any RP effort whatsoever. Don't get me wrong - he's more than welcome to it if that makes him happy, which it very obviously does. I welcome everything that helps bring out a PC's personality and make them cooler, in my perfect world we should all be stars. What frustrates me that at the same time I am told I'm failing to "step on up" and grasp and exploit opportunities that I don't even see, so I'm made to feel it's my own (implied) inadequacy that prevents my success in the game. That is even more frustrating when it's already been admitted that the campaign is set in a sexist setting that makes success harder to achieve for female PCs.

Well, perhaps the best solution is to have the NPCs treat or think of you as an "honourary male person". Basically, maintain the cultural mores of the society, except when dealing with the PCs. It might break the versimilitude of the setting, but would probably go along way to help the female players. You could justify it as saying that the PCs are so famous and respected that the traditional cultural trappings don't apply to them.

The only other real options I see is to re-jig the world to change the culture, or start a new game.

As a total side note, if you took your (character's) feelings a little bit farther, I think you'd have the makings of a pretty good villain.

 

[Iuz]

In my experience most male DMs (including me) fall into one of four traps:


1. Women Are Invisible - In this kind of game the players never see women anywhere. Every person, or nearly every person, they hear about or they talk to is male. Every ruler is male, every villain is male, every person they see in bars is male, every NPC who helps them is male and every NPC who hurts them is male. If there is an exception and a woman is seen, it is usually to be rescued or for a sexual encounter.

2. Women Are Silent - In this scenario the PCs see women on a regular basis, but they never doing anything of significance. Women in this world are wives, servants, barmaids and whores - nothing more. If the PCs decide to start up conversations with the women they meet they find themselves talking to a simpleton who doesn't have any useless information never mind useful information.

3. Women Are Sex Objects - In this world there may or may not be women doing anything of significance, however, there will be a definite look and attitude to women, regardless of their role. Every woman in the world is right out of a sexual fantasy the GM has. The GM's tastes are paraded out for the players as woman after woman looks just like his dream girl. Average women are unheard of in this kind of world, though a rare woman who is extremely ugly might show up for contrast.

4. Women Are Men - In this world people with the names and appearance of women are abundant. However, while these creatures may appear to be women, they never act like women. The vast majority of these women act just like men 100 percent of the time, while the odd exception may act like a man's sexual fantasy.


I don't think any guy has an excuse for doing this; especially if there are women in the group. I myself have being trying hard to overcome this, but with only limited success.

 

[random user]

It is not that blatant. If it were I'd have left the game quickly - I have no time for people who so simply and obviously don't play in my league.

I've been a bit hesitant to post examples here for two reasons:

Being totally uninvolved in her game and not having talked to her at all about this, I will offer two examples I have seen. Note: this also applies to same-gender interactions at times, but since this thread is about gender bias, I'll just use the standard examples.


*** These are hypothetical examples only ***

Situation A:

There is a discussion going on about a complex move that needs to be made. Female speaks up and proposes a plan. While she does that, male's mind is churning on something he thinks will work wonderfully. Being careful not to cut her off, he waits till she's done and then excitedly tells his plan.

His perspective: Hey I'm sensitive, I didn't cut her off.

Her perspective: Wow, they listened to me speak and didn't comment on it at all. Instead this guy just ignored it and launched into his own idea.

Situation B:

There is again a discussion going on about a complex move that needs to be made. Female again speaks up and proposes a plan. Male listens to it, thinks it has some great ideas, but thinks that one or two particular areas could use improvement. Someone else has started to speak, but when there is an opening to speak, he explains his improvements.

His perspective: Wow, she had a pretty good idea; she's a great member of this party

Her perspective: Wow, he just took 75% of my ideas and is basically proposing the same thing I did 2 minutes ago. And he didn't even acknowledge that I came up with the idea in the first place!


Now, is the female here being over-sensitive? I think it depends on how regularly it happens and whether it regularly happens to everyone at the table. If everyone cuts off everyone and people expand on ideas all the time without complimenting or acknowledging the original idea, then she should just suck it up and deal. If it seems that it's not happening to other people but is to her, though, then I think there is a problem.

These are just two hypothetical examples of things that males often do that females get ticked off at.

 

[Nisarg]

4. Women Are Men - In this world people with the names and appearance of women are abundant. However, while these creatures may appear to be women, they never act like women. The vast majority of these women act just like men 100 percent of the time, while the odd exception may act like a man's sexual fantasy.
.

And how exactly does one "act" like a woman?

If you have a warrior-woman a la Jean D'Arc who leads troops into battle, is that being unwomanly?
If you have a sweet princess who only cares about parties and pretty things is that more womanly?
If you have a woman as a ruler, is she only being "womanly" if she shows a maternal attitude of PC-style nanny-state "caring" for the lives of her subjects, or is an "iron lady" in the style of Margaret Thatcher acceptable as a woman?

How, by your standards, would a DM make a female NPC act like a "woman" without it being stereotypical? Could it possibly be that there are just as many types of "femeninity" as there are women in the world and there is no single way to define "womanly behaviour"?

Nisarg

 

[Iuz]

And how exactly does one "act" like a woman?

I realise the way I phrased that left it open to misinterpretation.

In general men and women take different approaches to situations. There are exceptions (in both directions) to any instance I might give, but there are generalities that can describe difference between sexes.

If you don't understand what I mean I would suggest reading one of John Gray's books. (he tends to state things in a way a non-phycologist like myself can understand)

 

[Camarath]

In general men and women take different approaches to situations. There are exceptions (in both directions) to any instance I might give, but there are generalities that can describe difference between sexes.

Are you suggesting some sort of different but equal approach? I have not found that to be a particularly effective or satisfactory when applied in a systematic manner.

 

[StalkingBlue]

Well, perhaps the best solution is to have the NPCs treat or think of you as an "honourary male person". Basically, maintain the cultural mores of the society, except when dealing with the PCs. It might break the versimilitude of the setting, but would probably go along way to help the female players. You could justify it as saying that the PCs are so famous and respected that the traditional cultural trappings don't apply to them.

I've asked S'mon whether he'd consider giving female PCs a break as compared to female NPCs, but apparently that is not an option. His stance as I understand it is that while it might help the female players, it would break the verisimilitude of his setting.

The only other real options I see is to re-jig the world to change the culture, or start a new game.

As neither are options at this stage, that would argue in favour of me leaving the game. :\

As a total side note, if you took your (character's) feelings a little bit farther, I think you'd have the makings of a pretty good villain.

Heh...