Shadow Conjuration and Sepia Snake Sigil

[Thanee]

No rule exists to the effect of "that which is not necessary is forbidden," and since the rules elsewhere state that you may always voluntarily fail a save, there's no reason to think that an unnecessary save may not be voluntarily failed.

Well "needs no saving throw" can mean that you get none, and thus cannot fail it, or that you can choose to automatically succeed, but are free to roll, if you like.

And there is also the common sense rule, that it's entirely stupid to assume that a character can believe in his/her own illusions (unless suffering from severe mental disorders, which will greatly affect the character in every situation otherwise ).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pielorinho]

In that moment, the illusionist probably doesn't know, that it's his spell affecting him. If he does, then he doesn't need to save against it, but succeeds automatically. Obviously.

It's that last word that causes so many problems.... The way I see it, if you cast the spell yourself, you gain more benefit from it than anyone else. You've got incontrovertible proof that it's an illusion, so you don't need to make a save if you don't want to: you can choose to succeed automatically at it.

On the other hand, if you want to suspend that disbelief, you can (as you always can) choose to fail at your save, and automatically believe in it.

Most other folks have to make a save if they want to disbelieve, or they can choose to automatically believe. Only the caster (and others with incontrovertible proof) get to choose in either direction.

As near as I can tell, this position is forthrightly supported by the rules. It also gives the spell's advantage to the caster, which is appropriate; and it mirrors human behavior, in which people can choose to believe impossible things.

Daniel

 

[Thanee]

Well, going from the rules, there is no rule either way, which states what "no save needed" means (see above for the two options, edited post).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pielorinho]

Other than the common sense rule, that it's entirely stupid to assume that a character can believe in his/her own illusions (unless suffering from severe mental disorders, which will greatly affect the character in every situation otherwise )

Keep in mind that casting illusions is committing a great con job. The best con artists are able to treat their cons as reality, so that they show no signs that they're conning someone. Human minds can hold illogical positions without being afflicted by severe mental disorders, and this is a case where the spellcaster greatly benefits from that capability.

I remember being a kid and insisting that the word "coupon" was correctly pronounced Koo-pon. Even after my mother pulled out the dictionary and showed me that "Kyoo-pon" is the preferred pronunciation--even after I had incontrovertible proof--I maintained my position. I was extremely stubborn, and I felt that my pride hinged on my not admitting I was wrong in this case, so I continued to believe that Koo-pon was the preferred pronunciation. Humans are kinda funny that way.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

Well "needs no saving throw" can mean that you get none, and thus cannot fail it, or that you can choose to automatically succeed, but are free to roll, if you like

"Need" isn't defined in the rulebook; it is, however, defined in the dictionary. Saying that you don't need something does not, in plain English, mean that you are not allowed something. In order to reach the conclusion that "needs no saving throw" means "may not choose to make a saving throw" requires serious redefinition of the verb "need"; my Occam's Razor has excised that option.

Daniel

 

[Mistwell]

Sorry to bring up this old thread guys, but I just had to chime in here...

Read the spell you are specifically talking about again (rather than just the concept of "illusion") and you will see this whole debate is a moot point.

"You use material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects, or forces..."

You don't need to fool yourself into believing your illusion spell is real...you already know for sure that it IS at least partially real. I don't see how you could not volunteer to fail your save knowing full well that, even if you made your save then 1/5 of the time it's STILL going to be real despite your disbelief.

It's like when you are driving in your car and are worried you are about to barely scrape something on the side unless you move. Even if you think there is only 20% chance that you will hit something if you keep going straight, it's quite simple to just believe you WILL hit something and move slightly out of the way to avoid it. If there is real doubt, its much easier to operate as if it is real rather than disbelieve something you know might well be real.

I think common sense in this case says you should always be able to volunteer to fail your save concerning shadow evocations and conjuations...as there is a decent chance your belief will turn out to be correct (even more than decent if you take the Shadowcraft Mage and Shadowcrafter Prestige Classes - at the point where there is a 60-100% chance it's real, you would be a fool to disbelieve).

 

[Thanee]

Common sense obviously seems to work different for different people.

My common sense tells me, that an illusionist, that creates a spell, that is 20% real and 80% illusion (which is what shadow conjurations are), does very well know, that 80% of the spell is not real and thus would not be affected by that portion of the spell, because illusions by their very nature can only affect those unaware of that nature.

Anyways, that's just my opinion, of course.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Christian]

Heh. I do have a lot of ranks in diplomacy and bluff. Maybe I could pretend to be mute, and make up a double-sided sign ...

Almost worth resurrecting this thread just for me to bring up the obligatory Order of the Stick reference ...

Goblin: "Hey-what does this say? [reading] I ... prepared ... Explosive ... Runes ... this ... morning. Huh. I wonder what ..."

 

[Hypersmurf]

I remember being a kid and insisting that the word "coupon" was correctly pronounced Koo-pon. Even after my mother pulled out the dictionary and showed me that "Kyoo-pon" is the preferred pronunciation--even after I had incontrovertible proof--I maintained my position. I was extremely stubborn, and I felt that my pride hinged on my not admitting I was wrong in this case, so I continued to believe that Koo-pon was the preferred pronunciation. Humans are kinda funny that way.

Interestingly, dictionary.com has two entries that give pronunciations for coupon... and in both cases, they list Koo-pon before Kyoo-pon.

-Hyp.

 

[Thanee]

I think Pielorinho made his Will save against the illusion aimed to make him think koo-pon is wrong, while it is indeed right and also the more common pronounciation.

Kyoo-pon... that surely does not sound anywhere close to what I'm used to (from german, too).

Bye
Thanee