Shadow Conjuration question

[Baumi]

My Sorcerer has reached level 8 and I might take Shadow Conjuration, but the spell confuse me a bit.

I (think I) understand how attacks and attacking Shadow Monsters work, but what's up with non-attack spells like Mount, Obscuring Mist, Mage Armor, ...?

 

[Jack Simth]

That's one of those spells you need to chat with your DM about to see how he will rule things, but in general...

For most beneficial spells, the fact that it isn't fully real doesn't much matter - you can voluntarily give up a Will save, and if you fail the will save, the spell has it's full normal effect (so you can ride that Phantom Steed you emulated, no problem - just tell anyone you're conjouring it for not to examine it too closely, and hope they follow orders). For some, though, the DM has to make a few choices (E.g., Mage Armor - does the attack get to make a will save for a chance to ignore that +4 Armor bonus to AC, or just the one getting the Armor?).

For battlefield control spells (such as Obscuring Mist) your DM basically has to make the same call he does with any other illusion that permits a save - what constitutes "interaction" (does an archer sitting outside the fog cloud get a save when looking to see if he can spot a target? Just the people inside? Does the sight-blocking effect qualify as a non-damaging effect so that the friendly archers inside the cloud have a good chance (80%, assuming they make the save with the bonus for you telling them it's a fake cloud) or does the aspect that the shadow material is in the way have the same effect completely regardless of whether it's recognized or not?)

But even with some of the harsher rulings, the Shadow line of spells rocks for a Sorceror.

 

[Thanee]

For most beneficial spells, the fact that it isn't fully real doesn't much matter - you can voluntarily give up a Will save, and if you fail the will save, the spell has it's full normal effect.

Which, of course, only few will actually allow, because of the silliness involved within.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Jack Simth]

Which, of course, only few will actually allow, because of the silliness involved within.

Bye
Thanee

Well, there's sillyness involved at times - the caster knows EXACTLY what it is (well, not necessarily a Sorceror.... there's no real need for a sorceror to take lots of spellcraft, unless the Sorceror is the only Arcane Caster in the party....) - but at other times, it's not so silly - that Fighter doesn't know what a "real" Phantom Steed is supposed to look like (no Spellcraft) so how the heck is he supposed to know that the discrepancies involved aren't just the results of a different caster, and simply not think about them?

And also, it's not always so silly, even when the caster is making a Steed for himself - a caster with full knoweledge of the spell used knows: 1) That those who trust in it are always fully supported; 2) that it is real, at least partially; 3) that the chosen form of the shadow isn't going to hurt either way, so might as well relex and not think about it too much.

Edit: Besides - is it really that much sillier than letting the Rogue voluntarily fail his reflex save for Greasing his armor? Or the Wizard voluntarily fail his Fort save vs. Reduce Person?

 

[Cabral]

versus non damaging effects, the spells are still only 20% real so any all-or-nothing effect happens 20% of the time versus someone who successfully disbelieves.

Damage or other numerical spell (Magic missile, mage armor, etc):
*Fail will save: Spell is real for that person, Spell resistance applies even if it didn't normally; gets normal saves alotted by the spell being copied.
*Succeed Will Save: Spell is quasi real for that person. Damage and numerical effects ar reduced to 20% versus that one person; (Fireball would deal 1d6/lvl/5 damage; mage armor is +4/5 AC) Spell resistance applies even if it didn't normally; gets normal saves alotted by the spell being copied. (so a successful will and reflex save versus a Shadow Fireball deals only one tenth the damage rolled)

Spells with all-or-nothing effects:
*Fail will save: Spell is real for that person, Spell resistance applies even if it didn't normally; gets normal saves alotted by the spell being copied.
*Succeed Will Save: Spell is quasi real for that person. Non-numerical effect have a 20% chance of affecting that one person; Spell resistance applies even if it didn't normally; gets normal saves alotted by the spell being copied.

You or friends are only one to interact with shadow spell (Mount, Unseen Servant):
*Voluntary fail save and spell functions at full effect.
*If you can't voluntarily savge for whatever reason and succeed: Spell works for everyone else who laughs and points at you as you fall through the horse 80% of the time. Some spells (Unseen Servant) still work at full force.

 

[Thanee]

Edit: Besides - is it really that much sillier than letting the Rogue voluntarily fail his reflex save for Greasing his armor? Or the Wizard voluntarily fail his Fort save vs. Reduce Person?

Failing Reflex is easily done, but even Fortitude would not really be possible realistically in many cases, I guess.

Failing Will against illusions, especially for oneself, is pretty nuts, tho.

Bye
Thanee

 

[CronoDekar]

Which, of course, only few will actually allow, because of the silliness involved within.

Really? I can't say I have a particular problem with it myself. I suppose I think of disbelief as a different nature than knowing, and someone casting shadow spells would learn to alter their mindset appropriately to get the most advantage out of non-reality.

But moreover I just like using it to conjure a Phantom Steed

 

[Scion]

Really? I can't say I have a particular problem with it myself. I suppose I think of disbelief as a different nature than knowing, and someone casting shadow spells would learn to alter their mindset appropriately to get the most advantage out of non-reality.

Definately. Especially since when they fail their save then it 'is' real from their perspective.

You know that you are conjuring shadowstuff, but if you believe hard enough then it works just like a real X.

So, believe it is real strongly enough and it is

 

[Thanee]

Really? I can't say I have a particular problem with it myself.

I usually base it on the rule, that when you know something is an illusion, you automatically pass the disbelieve save. Sure, if you forego the save, you might not even have one to pass, but that's just a matter of mechanical order and furthermore irrelevant, since it's not meant to prove anything, just saying, that I like to do it that way (i.e. you know it's an illusion, so you get no save, but rather an automatic success, which you cannot voluntarily fail, since you do not get to roll).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Cabral]

Well, a lot of "real world magic" is essentially self-hypnosis which is not unlike, although far less automatic than, voluntarily failing a will save.

If you don't want it to be so automatic, disallow voluntarily failing Will saves (all the time or just versus spells you cast) but allow the character to roll a wisdom based Autohypnosis or Concentration check (DC 15) and allow half the amount over the DC to be added to Will save DC. (I.e., roll a 16 add +0; 17-18 +1; 19-20 +2; etc)

Because of the power of the mind to influence the body, this can be applied to failing a Fortitude save.