Shadow Dancer Question...

[Particle_Man]

hmmm

I guess we will have to wait for 3.5

My instincts are not to allow the sd shadows to create spawn. creating spawn seems to be an evil act, and one might argue that the sd shadows are not the same kind of shadows as found in the MM (the whole not being turnable, having an alignment same as Sd, deal makes me think of them as created from the SD's own soul or something cool like that). Similar, but not the same. These shadows may never have been living folk, and may never have lived in the negative energy realms, and may not be life-haters.

creating spawn would seem to be a nasty thing to do (denying them their afterlife, etc.). Monster CE shadows do it because they hate all life. why would a non-evil sd either do it or have his similarly aligned companions do it?

If one does allow spawn, then I would assume that the spawn would be normal monster shadows, because they result from destroying a humanoid. If so, they should be turnable, alignment CE, and would turn on the sd in a second if the master-shadow kicks the bucket. these are the life-haters. On this interpretation, the death of an evil "servant" shadow of a shadow companion would not cause a penalty to either the master-shadow or the SD.

But until the 3.5 DMG comes out to clarify this, this is only my interpretation of the rules. There is not enough data to know definitively what to say.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: hmmm

My instincts are not to allow the sd shadows to create spawn. creating spawn seems to be an evil act, and one might argue that the sd shadows are not the same kind of shadows as found in the MM (the whole not being turnable, having an alignment same as Sd, deal makes me think of them as created from the SD's own soul or something cool like that). Similar, but not the same.

Do they have a Strength drain attack?

Are they incorporeal?

What's their movement rate?

-Hyp.

 

[Janos Antero]

Shadows loose usefulness quickly to the Shadowdancer at higher levels, so the solution one Shadowdancer came up with was to simply put it to work. He got a type 4 bag of holding, put the Shadow in it, and just told it to go find what he needed in there.

Didn't exactly help combat, or even really beat a Hewards, but damn did we have a great deal of fun with the Shadowcaddy.

 

[drnuncheon]

Shadows loose usefulness quickly to the Shadowdancer at higher levels, so the solution one Shadowdancer came up with was to simply put it to work. He got a type 4 bag of holding, put the Shadow in it, and just told it to go find what he needed in there.

Mind you, being incorporeal, it can't actually get the things for him, so I'm not sure that it would be much help anyway.

I figure the primary use of the shadow companions is as scouts and spies, and for that they're useful at just about any level.

J

 

[Janos Antero]

I know that issue came up, but was gotten around between the DM and the player, I never paid attention to how. He would use it for gag purposes primarily, so the DM may just have let it slide.

Something juvenile, yet very fun over and over again to that group when a shadowy hand would stick up out of the bag holding up whatever he asked for, or the wrong item entirely (such as his boxers while talking to a lady he was poorly attempting to woo).

 

[chengarino]

Shadow's Usefulness at 3HD without Spawn Ability

I agree that Shadow's are useful at 'spying' ... but at 19hp, it's a very weak spy. It's akin to having a familiar spying for you, but without the telepathic link or other better HD.

The only reason I considered taking my SD to 3rd level is if the Shadow Companion could 'create spawns.' Then, my SD (who took monk levels to get there) could Improve Trip and Stun for the Shadow to finish the victim off.

But hp 19 is a HUGE risk! incorporeal or not. Just about any combatant (from any class) at APL 10 can kill it with one hit.

I also can not find the Sage reference. I did a quick survey of Dragon back to issue 287 and I could not find that reference.

Followup Question. Since Shadows can pass through 'solid' things at will ... can a shadow attack an enemy from below the ground that the creature is standing on? if so, what 'cover' does the shadow get?

chengarino

 

[drnuncheon]

Re: Shadow's Usefulness at 3HD without Spawn Ability

I agree that Shadow's are useful at 'spying' ... but at 19hp, it's a very weak spy. It's akin to having a familiar spying for you, but without the telepathic link or other better HD.

But with incorporeality - a major bonus in a scout. "What's on the other side of that door/window/stone wall?"

Followup Question. Since Shadows can pass through 'solid' things at will ... can a shadow attack an enemy from below the ground that the creature is standing on? if so, what 'cover' does the shadow get?

Obviously it gets 100% cover if 'fully submerged', but then it can't see its opponent, either. If it wanted to be able to fight in a practical way, I'd say 9/10ths cover (which means +10 AC, +4 Reflex saves, half damage even on a failed reflex save, it doesn't take AoOs...)

J

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Shadow's Usefulness at 3HD without Spawn Ability

Obviously it gets 100% cover if 'fully submerged', but then it can't see its opponent, either. If it wanted to be able to fight in a practical way, I'd say 9/10ths cover (which means +10 AC, +4 Reflex saves, half damage even on a failed reflex save, it doesn't take AoOs...)

There was a two or three page thread about Spectres some time in the last month... someone might be able to dredge it up.

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

If used exclusively as a scout/spy, a shadow really isn't in as much danger as you think. At the first sign of trouble, it merely needs to sink into the ground and move away. On its first action it immediately becomes unassailable. Not bad. And if memory serves, you need a ghost-touch weapon to even strike an incorporeal creature, or you suffer a miss chance besides.

 

[chengarino]

At first sign of trouble...

If used exclusively as a scout/spy, a shadow really isn't in as much danger as you think. At the first sign of trouble, it merely needs to sink into the ground and move away. On its first action it immediately becomes unassailable. Not bad. And if memory serves, you need a ghost-touch weapon to even strike an incorporeal creature, or you suffer a miss chance besides.

Agreed. It's just that I don't know how many times we've run into glyph of this or ward of that ... and even with a save, you're still taking a smackering of damage. At level 10, these trap damage really stings (if not kills) ... for a 3HD shadow, it's either make incoporeal miss chance (it's saves are poor at APL 10) or DIE and master looses 600xp.

Note, the shadow have poor spot/listen/init ratings. Furthermore, it has no Search ranks to really find anything while scouting ahead. So, if it doesn't get the surprise ... it isn't going first. The only advantage is that it's incorporeal (so folks might not expect it) and that it always moves silently. However, once spotted, it's in deep trouble at AC 13.

Besides, i think the reason that Shadow Dancer's have the shadow illusion spell (silent image using shadows) is to confuse assilants as to which image is the shadow and which is the illusion. I though that the spell would give the shadow a little more of a fighting chance.

And the notion of a Shadow Dancer with a troupe of shadows is an interesting idea. It makes a 'role' player a bit more vertile at that PC level when compared to others classes.

chengarino