Shadow Stride vs. Fleeting Ghost vs. Secret Stride

[Oompa]

A rogue is behind a pillar and out of LOS of a guard. He wants to move to another pillar that is say 5 squares away. By normal stealth rules he can't make a stealth roll once he reaches the other pillar because the action he just took (moving) revealed him.

A player makes a stealth check at the end of his movement, no new action required to roll the stealth roll... But he would take the -5 for moving more than 2 squares..

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

A player makes a stealth check at the end of his movement, no new action required to roll the stealth roll... But he would take the -5 for moving more than 2 squares..

Shadow Stride
You silently step from shadow to shadow, slipping past your foes unseen and unheard.
At-Will Martial
Move Action Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: You must be hidden to use this power. You can move your speed and must end your movement in a space where you can remain hidden. Then make a Stealth check with no penalty for moving. If the check succeeds, you remain hidden during the movement, even if you have no cover or concealment during it.

You are wrong, shadow stride specifically remove the penalty for moving.

In answer to the OP : Shadow Stride only works if you are already hidden, as you pointed out yourself in the Opening post. That's why fleeting ghost is still very useful. Eliminating the -5 penalty is not a slight edge if it applies. There isn't always a Superior cover available within 2 squares. In fact, more often than not there isn't. If you feel it isn't worthwhile, you are free to select something else but I wouldn't recommand it. For the sniper rogue, there is nothing more frustrating than losing a full round of going ninja because you were unable to become hidden.

Beside, in my exprience, rogues are more likely to simply rush to cover, make their stealth and then pop back with Deft strike for an immediate sneak attack in the same round. Starting to run around the battlefield cover to cover isn't that common since it's likely to leave you isolated. In practice it is therefore that initial dash to cover that is the most important, making fleeting ghost more useful than shadow stride, IMO. Becoming hidden in the first place is the necessity. Once you are hidden, having the option of running from cover to cover is a luxury. A cool luxury, indubitably, but still a luxury. For a ninja type rogue I would almost certainly take shadow stride but I would never retrain fleeting ghost, it's the basics.

 

[Smeelbo]

Becoming Hidden, Remaining Hidden, Not Remaining Hidden

Any time you take an action that makes you NOT hidden anymore, you CANNOT make a Stealth roll to become hidden (again) during that action. THIS is the restriction which is specifically lifted by FG.

That is very unlikely. If Fleeting Ghost were an exception to Not Remaining Hidden, it would read "You must be hidden to use this power," as Shadow Stride does. Shadow Stride is written to be an exception to Remaining Hidden. I don't recall any power that is an exception to Not Remaining Hidden, but if it were, it would require that you be hidden to use it.

It also grants you a (worthless) stealth roll at the end of the action even if you can't actually become hidden, but I think that is a moot point.

On the contrary, the Stealth check granted is the point: it's what Fleeting Ghost does.

My only argument on the limitations of FG is it doesn't give you any power to stay/become hidden in a situation where you couldn't do so before, but it does grant you a roll in a case where you wouldn't normally get one.

A successful Stealth check does one of two things, the character either becomes or remains hidden. Thus you contradict yourself when you say "it doesn't give you any power to stay/become hidden in a situation where you couldn't do so before, but it does grant you a roll in a case where you wouldn't normally get one." You even contradict your own hypothesis, since "grant[ing] you a roll in a case where you wouldn't normally get one," e.g., making a Stealth check during the same action that makes you not hidden, is exactly "becoming hidden in a situation where you couldn't do so before."

A rogue is behind a pillar and out of LOS of a guard. He wants to move to another pillar that is say 5 squares away. By normal stealth rules he can't make a stealth roll once he reaches the other pillar because the action he just took (moving) revealed him. He would have to take ANOTHER action to become hidden again. If he uses FG, then he gets that roll 'for free'.

If that were the case, Fleeting Ghost would include "You must be hidden to use this power," just as Shadow Stride does.

If instead of using FG he used SS then he could STAY hidden as he crossed the open area where the guard can see and there is no cover.

That is indeed what Shadow Stride does.

In the case of normal stealth or FG the guard will obviously know there is someone around, and in fact can pretty much deduce exactly where they are (behind the 2nd pillar), but with FG the rogue is at least able to be technically hidden again if he passes the new stealth check (and he gets no -5 penalty for moving more than 2 squares to this check).

For your interpretation to be correct, Fleeting Ghost has to be an exception to both Becoming Hidden and Not Remaining Hidden, a stronger claim than MyISPHatesENWorld.

In any case, Fleeting Ghost as written cannot simply be an exception to Opposed Check, otherwise it would be written to modify the check, as Dangerous Theft does.

If you can use Fleeting Ghost regardless of whether you are hidden or not, which is what the current wording suggests, then it could be an exception to both Becoming Hidden and Remaining Hidden. If it were an exception to Not Remaining Hidden, which it what AbdulAlhazred claims, I would expect language closer to Chameleon, translated to a standard move action.

My concern is that if all Fleeting Ghost does is ignore the movement penalty on a Stealth check to Become Hidden, then the feat Skill Focus: Stealth is almost always much better. Because Fleeting Ghost explicitly grants a Stealth check instead of modifying a Stealth check you could already make, I am inclined to think MyISPHatesENWorld is correct.

Smeelbo

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

A player makes a stealth check at the end of his movement, no new action required to roll the stealth roll... But he would take the -5 for moving more than 2 squares..

✦ Not Remaining Hidden: If you take an action that causes you not to remain hidden, you
retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action. You can’t become hidden
again as part of that same action.

Note the bolded phrase. Sans using any power you CANNOT become hidden as part of the move action which resulted in you becoming not hidden. Thus a character without FG (or SS) moving between two pillars FROM stealth cannot become hidden behind the second pillar as part of the same move action. We essentially must assume that the 'gets a stealth roll' part of FG means that the character CAN again become hidden.

Note that ironically if the character was NOT hidden but was behind the 1st pillar, then he CAN become hidden behind the 2nd because he was not becoming 'not hidden' when he moved. So by NORMAL Stealth rules the character must be not hidden either before or after the move, but using FG he can be hidden BOTH before AND after, but in NO case can he be hidden DURING the move (while not in concealment and in view of an enemy) in my previous example.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That is very unlikely. If Fleeting Ghost were an exception to Not Remaining Hidden, it would read "You must be hidden to use this power," as Shadow Stride does. Shadow Stride is written to be an exception to Remaining Hidden. I don't recall any power that is an exception to Not Remaining Hidden, but if it were, it would require that you be hidden to use it.On the contrary, the Stealth check granted is the point: it's what Fleeting Ghost does.A successful Stealth check does one of two things, the character either becomes or remains hidden. Thus you contradict yourself when you say "it doesn't give you any power to stay/become hidden in a situation where you couldn't do so before, but it does grant you a roll in a case where you wouldn't normally get one." You even contradict your own hypothesis, since "grant[ing] you a roll in a case where you wouldn't normally get one," e.g., making a Stealth check during the same action that makes you not hidden, is exactly "becoming hidden in a situation where you couldn't do so before." If that were the case, Fleeting Ghost would include "You must be hidden to use this power," just as Shadow Stride does.That is indeed what Shadow Stride does.For your interpretation to be correct, Fleeting Ghost has to be an exception to both Becoming Hidden and Not Remaining Hidden, a stronger claim than MyISPHatesENWorld.

In any case, Fleeting Ghost as written cannot simply be an exception to Opposed Check, otherwise it would be written to modify the check, as Dangerous Theft does.

If you can use Fleeting Ghost regardless of whether you are hidden or not, which is what the current wording suggests, then it could be an exception to both Becoming Hidden and Remaining Hidden. If it were an exception to Not Remaining Hidden, which it what AbdulAlhazred claims, I would expect language closer to Chameleon, translated to a standard move action.

My concern is that if all Fleeting Ghost does is ignore the movement penalty on a Stealth check to Become Hidden, then the feat Skill Focus: Stealth is almost always much better. Because Fleeting Ghost explicitly grants a Stealth check instead of modifying a Stealth check you could already make, I am inclined to think MyISPHatesENWorld is correct.

Smeelbo

I must not be explaining this in a clear enough fashion because I DO NOT claim FG is "an exception to Not Remaining Hidden and Remaining Hidden".

I claim it does TWO things for FG. It lifts the restriction in the 6th phrase of the errata'd Stealth rule, "Not Remaining Hidden" in which you can NOT take a new roll in the same action in which you became 'not hidden'. (on 2nd thought that may be what you're talking about, but in any case it is my position). It gives you a roll to BECOME hidden even if you became not hidden. Since that is the ONLY case where you would not be able to make a stealth roll normally, why else would the power have that phrase? If it didn't have that phrase, then once you moved and that move revealed you, you wouldn't be able to roll again, so it HAS to be lifting that restriction.

Secondly it removes the -5 penalty.

SS is a slightly different case. With SS you start hidden, and if you make the roll you remain hidden and were never revealed at all. The reason it mentions a stealth roll is to make sure the DM knows that this remaining hidden function is not automatic, that it requires a new stealth roll, otherwise it would be ambiguous and people might interpret it to mean you simply lift the movement restriction on staying hidden. It also happens to lift the -5 penalty.

Thus it all makes perfect sense to me. FG lets you 'dive into cover' from plain sight and become hidden, even if the movement part of FG causes you to become 'not hidden'. SS lets you sneak across an area with no cover, remaining hidden the whole way. They do slightly different things, and in some specific cases it may not even matter which you use (someone who moves but never becomes unhidden can use either one to get the -5 lifted).

I really think if we sat down and played it out that we would agree on every roll. Sorry if my rules lawyerese is not quite up to putting it in tight enough words.