Shadowdancer Hide in Plain Sight

[dcollins]

So, this is the second time I've had a player create a Shadowdancer PC. Of course, he's got the Hide in Plain Sight ability (Hide in any shadows even while being watched), and a fantastic Hide skill (+35 at 16th character level).

What are the limitations on this? It seems like any interior or shadowy surroundings it's as good as constant invisibility. In particular, I'm worried about Hiding simultaneously while attacking -- 3.5 has rules for "sniping", i.e., requiring an additional Hide check at -20 for a ranged attack, but there are NO stipulations about melee attacks.

Can a Shadowdancer make full melee attacks on someone and remain hidden the whole time, or are there any rules I'm overlooking to prevent that?

 

[mikebr99]

The hide skill is at least a move action... so any attacking in the round is only going to be a standard action.


Mike

 

[Pinotage]

There's been a lot of debate on this, but since I've run a 12th level Shadowdancer with +30 hide through my game, here's how I handled it. I don't think this agrees with comments by the Sage and in the FAQ.

1) Like mikebr99 said, it has to be done as a move equivalent action or as part of a move, and only once per round. Hence the best you can do is a standard action on attacking, unless you're hidden and something stands next to you in which case it's exactly like invisibility.
2) I treat it exactly like invisibility, except that you can 'more easily' spot it with a Spot check vs Hide.
3) In any round that you move and hide in, you take the -5 penatly if you move more than half your speed.
4) In any round that you move and hide before or after an attack, you take -20 penalty to that hide check.
5) I allowed it with Spring Attack as well, so that you could either hide before the attack and strike, or after the attack, in both cases taking -20 penalty.
6) I insist on a reasonable shadow, in other words a pebble on the ground is not considered a reasonable shadow, and darkness is not a shadow. Also, darkvision does not foil Hide in Plain Sight.

I think that sums it up. Both the player and I were happy with this.

Pinotage

 

[dcollins]

The hide skill is at least a move action... so any attacking in the round is only going to be a standard action.

Unfortunately, I don't actually see that in the rules (as much as I'd like it to be the case). The Hide skill leaves open the option of remaining motionless for an ambush.

The primary thing that's missing is that I don't see any place that says:

(Desired rule) When you make an attack, you become un-hidden.

But I don't see that any place in the rules.

I would like to do exactly what Pinotage outlines, but I wish there were direct rules support for it.

 

[Len]

How about this:

It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

(Which does seem to make the sniping rule redundant. The rules on this point are not clear IMO.)

I'm playing a Shadowdancer who is effectively invisible at will to the party's paladin. My DM came up with rules similar to Pinotage - not quite the same but the upshot is that I get to attack at most once per round while hiding, and there are times during combat when I'm not hidden. It works out well - I can often fight from the shadows, but not without the danger of getting hit back.

 

[dcollins]

Len, thank you for the quote. I'm looking at & playing 3.0 which doesn't have the word "attacking" in that clause. That right there is what I need to fix this. Hmm.

 

[focallength]

how on earth do you have a +35 at 16th level? Assuming 20 dex +5 max skill +20 skill focus +3 halfling +4 thats what 32 and you probably dont have skill focus and arent a halfling so how did you get a 35? just curious is all.

 

[Pinotage]

For what it's worth, the Rules of the Game section on Movement says that Hiding should be part of a move action, similar to drawing a weapon with +1 BAB bonus. The sentence Len quoted by direct reading seems to indicate that you don't become 'unhidden' and that you can remain hidden even while you attack.

I think for the case was just to go with something that I was comfortable with. Invisibility as will I could handle, but greater invisibility at will? Nope.

Pinotage

 

[Pinotage]

how on earth do you have a +35 at 16th level? Assuming 20 dex +5 max skill +20 skill focus +3 halfling +4 thats what 32 and you probably dont have skill focus and arent a halfling so how did you get a 35? just curious is all.

Cloak of Elvenkind in 3e gave +10 to Hide. You could get shadow armor as well, and a Robe of Blending was just insane!

Pinotage

 

[Thanee]

how on earth do you have a +35 at 16th level? Assuming 20 dex +5 max skill +20 skill focus +3 halfling +4 thats what 32 and you probably dont have skill focus and arent a halfling so how did you get a 35? just curious is all.

Even in 3.5 that's no problem at all by that level.

19 (Ranks)
+3 (16 Dex)
+3 (+6 Dex bonus from an item, which costs 36,000 gp)
+10 (Hide bonus from an item, which costs 10,000 gp)

Nothing fancy for a 16th level character.

Bye
Thanee