Shadowdancer variant (rogue/wizard)

[Dandu]

I got that, you would be traped! But you are using my spell to protect youself, I liked. But, the spell last 10min/level, time enough to break that.

One round of immunity is enough for a Time Stop, after which much ass kicking would ensure.

But you are right, I don't want to enter in the realm of counter AMF tactics. Also, you could use wall of force, prismatic sphere, prismatic wall and other spells to make my familiar not follow you. I just mentioned a way to make wizard's life not so easy. I defend that, one wizard against an AT, is a battle that would depend of preparations and the best ideas would determinate the winner. I think tactics we are arguing are not valid, because in real play, we wouldn't know what the other player would do. My tactic using AMF is one of my favorities, but i woldn't use that unless you seemed a wizard in first place. I doubt you would be prepared to AMF, because it is not usually encontered (except in my games).

Valid points, although as a man who idolizes Batman, I do try to prepare for AMFs.

You said that AT is weak, tha's not true. Actually, Wizards are powerful. But even a wizard would have problem against an AT, if he uses his skills wiselly, like, using hide and move silently to gain an extra round, or pick your magic pouch with pick pocket.

1. I said it's weaker than a wizard. We're saying the same thing.
2. Hide is defeated by Blindsense and Blindsigh, which the familiar has. (Yrthak has 120 feet of it)
3. I always have multiple spell component pouches. Like Batman.

 

[Jimlock]

ok...ok...ok... i guess more blood HAS to be spiled...

You gain skills and sneak attack. The skills are nice, but are generally low powered.

Not true, Not in my experience anyway. One example: Nothing beats a good old mundane disguise. You better invest in Spot cause the roguish characters that take Disguise Seriously, are almost unbeatable.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
- Mark Twain

Not true either. Statistics, if used properly are a tool. And a great one at that.

I'm sure your long gone poet meant it in another way though...with "bad use" in mind... In case he meant it for all uses of statistics i have another one liner for him...

"Opinions are like a-s*holes... everybody has got one"
- Does not really matter who said it first

With all due respect, old man, min/maxing did not start with third edition, nor did game balance. The problems you list can be found in all systems, even 2e according to my friends who play it.

It never was a question of which systems "allow" it, cause they all do and that's only natural.
Question is which systems "promote" it.
I'm sure your 2e buddies can verify that. From personal experience i say 2e didn't.

I won't dispute that they take PrCs,

Thats enough for me to conclude through LOGIC that the core classes are overshadowed.

To me, we haven't ruled out the possibility that they take the prestige classes because the prestige classes are interesting,

You know...i could buy that a few years back...perhaps even today...rarely though.... but lets not hide behind our finger (that translates pretty well into english actually!)... Come ooon!!! The majority picks PrCs so as to kick more a-ss than they should...
If you rely on a PrC to make your character interesting... well i kinda feel sorry for you.
If you rely on alternate game mechanics so as to feel "special" ... well you are totally missing the point.
Majority picks PrCs so as "hack the system" as if this is what RPGs are about!!!

Since day 1, players have been crying over their DM's shoulders so as to get more. DMs' primary defense mechanism is the following: "If its not in the books, you can't have it!"
WotC is VERY aware of this fact... And normally... the company wants to sell more books...

So... eventually the use this "greed" to sell their merchandise. Every supplement gives greater powers... and every supplement after that gives even greater powers to the players... So now the stupid player can go to his DM and say: "Look!! It's in the OFFICIAL supplement! I CAN get it now!"
Naturally, the poor DM agrees, for he thinks to himself "Well... If they put it out there, they must have thought of keeping it balanced!"
Hey you know what? who cares about what ROLE PLAYING Games are really about. As long as the books fly off the shelves we are doing all right!!! Almost 100% of whats in the "Complete Series" is broken and overly complicated!
And then the DM witnesses his players beating their CR without a sweat.... and its a mess...
The game mechanics have evolved in such a way that its no longer possible to keep track of what is going on... Every game round takes ages!

You know... its even getting really hard to stand up for pen+paper games any more! What's your answer to the computer player now?
With such a complicated system he now has every right to say "Hey... i'd rather let my PC do the math, while I enjoy the game!"

Is it me... or are the people who wright the books we buy COMPLETELY INCOMPETENT of writing a book about Role-playing... about good story telling? Perhaps they are, perhaps they aren't. Sure is such a book won't sell. What sells is a book with a brand new PrC that kicks a-ss... a book with a brand new spell that will blow your mind off... Please... give me something that will Improve my Game, not something that underestimates my intelligence. What the hell do i need a brand new illusion spell that mimics a specific item... a specific monster ... a specific situation... while i can do all the above with a 1st level silent Image found in the players handbook? Are we so stupid that we need to be told what to replicate in a 10x10x10 feet cube? Do we lack such self confidence so as to spend money on a book that allows as to spend 2 skills points so as to be able to pinpoint an invisible target with a DC20 check? Are we so mentally helpless that we need "Swift Abjuration" so as to use abjuration spells as a swift action without penalty whatsoever... so as to make SURE that we save the Kingdom, without taking any chances of thinking of a smart way to handle the enemy? Are we so dull-witted so as to spend money on a book so as to become "Wild souls" which will give us the opportunity to get "spontaneous spells" so that we don't break our poor heads over which spells to memorize for a given encounter? How good a "specialist wizard" do we need to be so as to buy a book that allows us to become a "Master Specialist" and thus... kick even greater a-ss than we already did? Do we really want the safety of a +4 on all Saves (an immediate action-Elans) to buy a book that introduces YET ANOTHER sub system of rules... a book which gives away immediate-action-powers like candy so that we make sure we 're completely bulletproof?

On a side note: Just count the number of Core books 4e has...an easy way to understand where the game is headed...

No... we don't want any of that. We DON'T NEED any of that...

What we need is to be able to sit around a table and ROLE play our character... To walk in his shoes, to feel his emotions, to react THROUGH him, not as a God above him while calculating his "awesomeness"...we need to "think" and be creative so as to overcome whatever the DM has prepared for us.
We need to be able to play our good old class, while the player next to us does not care of how to unlock the "ultimate-superhero" that has 2 levels of this, 1 Level of that, 3 levels of this and 5levels of that.. Levels of god knows what... found in god knows where...
We need to sit next to a player that does not feel that a class of 3/2/5/1/... actually enlarges his p-enis.


And you come and tell me of how you obtained an Initiative of +16. Of what magic items you used to achieve that... well honestly, i'm sorry to say, but i don't really care.

Don't mean to disrespect you. I mean that.

it's just me.
While i can have a discussion on rules... and i admit i enjoy it... i can only do it to the point where i feel that it helps my game, or the game in general.
Beyond that i really don't see the point.

Cheers

 

[kitcik]

Clearly, after all these points, pure wizard is more powerful than Arcane Trickster (I almost said "better" but "better" is in the eye of the beholder).

Nothing about disguise, BAB and whatnot offsets the extra 8th and 9th level spells.

The most interesting thing about the whole debate is that despite all the time spent posting, we have yet to see a character sheet or write-up for the Arcane Trickster.

 

[Dandu]

Not true, Not in my experience anyway. One example: Nothing beats a good old mundane disguise. You better invest in Spot cause the roguish characters that take Disguise Seriously, are almost unbeatable.

Magic Jar allows you to possess someone's body. Just saying.

Also: Scent can ferret an impostor out iirc.

Not true either. Statistics, if used properly are a tool. And a great one at that.

I agree, it's just that most people have not had the training required to use them properly, which has resulted in an innate skepticism when someone says that they have statistical evidence for a position. I don't know about you, admittedly, so perhaps I was hasty in doubting your expertise in this area?

It never was a question of which systems "allow" it, cause they all do and that's only natural.
Question is which systems "promote" it.
I'm sure your 2e buddies can verify that. From personal experience i say 2e didn't.

They're of the opinion that third is more mechanically focused, but that roleplaying has always been up to the player. They certainly don't agree that "RP gave its place to Min/Maxing, and the power hungry player is now safe from thinking or acting out his character properly."

To be honest, old man, I think you're just complaining about us kids these days and our iPhones, and hula-hoops and solar panels and bottled water and belly piercings and...

Thats enough for me to conclude through LOGIC that the core classes are overshadowed.

Hold on. You conclude that, simply because people take prestige classes over regular classes, that prestige classes must therefore be overpowered?

That's not enough for me. The original shadowdancer, for example, is underpowered yet people often took it. The same goes for classes like Dwarven Defender, Arcane Archer, and a few others I listed. The powers those prestige classes grant are less useful than what you would have gotten if you had stayed in the base class that they were intended for, ie Rogue instead of Duelist.

What they are, however, is different. They provide different abilities than the base classes which could make people interested in them. The Assassin, for example does provide some interesting abilities, most of which aren't powerful.

To quote Tuvok, your logic is flawed.

You know...i could buy that a few years back...perhaps even today...rarely though.... but lets not hide behind our finger (that translates pretty well into english actually!)... Come ooon!!! The majority picks PrCs so as to kick more a-ss than they should...
If you rely on a PrC to make your character interesting... well i kinda feel sorry for you.
If you rely on alternate game mechanics so as to feel "special" ... well you are totally missing the point.
Majority picks PrCs so as "hack the system" as if this is what RPGs are about!!!

When you say "majority", I trust you say the majority of people you play with rather than the majority of D&D players? I am not a statistician unlike, perhaps, yourself, but I do remember that one cannot judge a large population off of a small sample size.

Offhand, I'd say you'd need to preform stratified random sampling on a diverse population of at least thirty players, preferably three hundred, and correct for tons of possible statistical biases before you can even make a guess at what the playstyle of the general D&D playing populous is.

Since day 1, players have been crying over their DM's shoulders so as to get more. DMs' primary defense mechanism is the following: "If its not in the books, you can't have it!"
WotC is VERY aware of this fact... And normally... the company wants to sell more books...

So... eventually the use this "greed" to sell their merchandise. Every supplement gives greater powers... and every supplement after that gives even greater powers to the players... So now the stupid player can go to his DM and say: "Look!! It's in the OFFICIAL supplement! I CAN get it now!"
Naturally, the poor DM agrees, for he thinks to himself "Well... If they put it out there, they must have thought of keeping it balanced!"
Hey you know what? who cares about what ROLE PLAYING Games are really about. As long as the books fly off the shelves we are doing all right!!! Almost 100% of whats in the "Complete Series" is broken and overly complicated!

You do realize that everything is subject to DM approval, right? Even core prestige classes, and especially supplemental materials? WotC has explicitly stated this before. A poor DM might let in unbalanced expansion material... but he'd also let in unbalanced core material such as Druids, one of the few classes that gets worse if you prestige class out of it unless the prestige class is called Planar Shepard.

Also, most of the Complete series isn't worth the paper it's printed on (most things are underpowered), but I suppose that's an argument for another time.

I will agree that WotC is a greedy corporation though. Of course, given that profits in the RPG industry are slim to none, I am having a hard time getting angry at them for that.

And then the DM witnesses his players beating their CR without a sweat.... and its a mess...

You do know that a core only wizard is capable of curb-stomping encounters better than a fighter with tons of expansion support, right? I can demonstrate this to you if you'd like to roll up the most broken fighter you can imagine and pair him with one of my wizards in a fight against various CR appropriate monsters.

The game mechanics have evolved in such a way that its no longer possible to keep track of what is going on... Every game round takes ages!

To be frank, I see this problem with unprepared player than with the system itself. My friends who play 2e say that, in general, rounds took about the same amount of time for them. I personally take a few minutes to conclude a round in my D&D games when playing a spellcaster.

You know... its even getting really hard to stand up for pen+paper games any more! What's your answer to the computer player now?
With such a complicated system he now has every right to say "Hey... i'd rather let my PC do the math, while I enjoy the game!"

Actually, that seems to be part of the popularity of Neverwinter Nights, whose online community is still alive with groups of PC gamers having entire campaigns on servers run by an online DM. I hear the roleplaying's pretty good on some of them.

Is it me... or are the people who wright the books we buy COMPLETELY INCOMPETENT of writing a book about Role-playing... about good story telling? Perhaps they are, perhaps they aren't. Sure is such a book won't sell. What sells is a book with a brand new PrC that kicks a-ss... a book with a brand new spell that will blow your mind off... Please... give me something that will Improve my Game, not something that underestimates my intelligence. What the hell do i need a brand new illusion spell that mimics a specific item... a specific monster ... a specific situation... while i can do all the above with a 1st level silent Image found in the players handbook? Are we so stupid that we need to be told what to replicate in a 10x10x10 feet cube? Do we lack such self confidence so as to spend money on a book that allows as to spend 2 skills points so as to be able to pinpoint an invisible target with a DC20 check? Are we so mentally helpless that we need "Swift Abjuration" so as to use abjuration spells as a swift action without penalty whatsoever... so as to make SURE that we save the Kingdom, without taking any chances of thinking of a smart way to handle the enemy? Are we so dull-witted so as to spend money on a book so as to become "Wild souls" which will give us the opportunity to get "spontaneous spells" so that we don't break our poor heads over which spells to memorize for a given encounter? How good a "specialist wizard" do we need to be so as to buy a book that allows us to become a "Master Specialist" and thus... kick even greater a-ss than we already did? Do we really want the safety of a +4 on all Saves (an immediate action-Elans) to buy a book that introduces YET ANOTHER sub system of rules... a book which gives away immediate-action-powers like candy so that we make sure we 're completely bulletproof?

Look, I can only address a paragraph of this magnitude in the most general of terms, so forgive me for that.

As I understand it, part of the problem comes from hiring English majors. That explains how parts of the game are mechanically unbalanced (though, unlike you, I consider the unbalance to generally be towards underpowered classes and prestige classes rather than overpowered ones). As for why the roleplaying part is poor... well, I suspect most of the good English majors are writing more important literature, or teaching, or something.

As for expansion material releasing new stuff, I think some of it can be justified. Some concepts are not supported by core. For example, unarmed combat was pretty bad in core. Limited ability to overcome DR coupled with no means of enchanting unarmed strikes outside of an Amulet of Mighty Fists which only added numerical enchantments and left out special abilities, which also took the neck slot that an HP boosting Amulet of Health, or an AC boosting Amulet of Natural Armor.... gah, it was a mess. The core class build around unarmed combat, the monk, had a distinct problem contributing to combat above level... 8 or so? Maybe 10?

On a side note: Just count the number of Core books 4e has...an easy way to understand where the game is headed...

No... we don't want any of that. We DON'T NEED any of that...

Actually, from my experience, 4e is balanced (if bland), with less mechanical emphasis on things than 3e, which should in theory promote roleplaying? I don't particularly like 4e, but I don't really have a huge issue with it either.

What we need is to be able to sit around a table and ROLE play our character... To walk in his shoes, to feel his emotions, to react THROUGH him, not as a God above him while calculating his "awesomeness"...we need to "think" and be creative so as to overcome whatever the DM has prepared for us.

Would you say that a "freeform" RP which has no rules and consists entirely of people roleplaying their characters to be better from an RP perspective than D&D?

I personally don't think so. I have observed many of those on forums, and they generally tend towards being low quality as well. Most people aren't good roleplayers, just like most people aren't good actors, or musicians, or scientists, or statisticians. Don't blame the game system for a player's shortcomings.

We need to be able to play our good old class, while the player next to us does not care of how to unlock the "ultimate-superhero" that has 2 levels of this, 1 Level of that, 3 levels of this and 5levels of that.. Levels of god knows what... found in god knows where...
We need to sit next to a player that does not feel that a class of 3/2/5/1/... actually enlarges his p-enis.

Would you prefer if they did it with one class, like a Druid?

And you come and tell me of how you obtained an Initiative of +16. Of what magic items you used to achieve that... well honestly, i'm sorry to say, but i don't really care.

Don't mean to disrespect you. I mean that.

I apologize, but it was in a discussion that you started about how an Arcane Trickster would have a higher initiative than a character I posted.

it's just me.
While i can have a discussion on rules... and i admit i enjoy it... i can only do it to the point where i feel that it helps my game, or the game in general.
Beyond that i really don't see the point.

In the fourth century B.C., the great Athenian philosopher Plato established a school at which mathematics was a key portion of the curriculum. It was taught with the utmost rigor, and it dealt with idealized shapes on which idealized operations were performed.
One student, who was put to stern mental exercise over the Platonic conception of mathematics, kept searching in vain for some application to the various forms of artisanry for which he knew mathematical concepts were useful.
Finally he said to Plato, "But, master, to what practical use can these theorems be put? What can be gained from them?"
The old philosopher glared at the inquiring student, turned to an assistant, and said, "Give this young man a penny that he might feel he has gained something from my teachings and then expel him."

Sometimes a man will pursue art for art's sake, because he finds it beautiful.

Disclaimer: I am nothing like Plato.

 

[Jimlock]

Magic Jar allows you to possess someone's body. Just saying.

?? How does that beat disguise ??

Can you impersonate a figure you can't reach?
Can you impersonate a dead figure?
Can you impersonate a figure that is supposed to be someplace else while you assume his role (e.g. in public), ergo disguise without setting off the alarm?
How good can you act as "the figure"?

Nope. A maxed out disguise cannot be beat so easily.

Also: Scent can ferret an impostor out iirc.

There are clever ways to disguise your scent. Using the figure's own clothes helps a lot. You can always find reasons to carry items with a heavy odor as well (e.g. dead game, perfume, soil after a hard days work.) It all depends on the figure you are trying to impersonate. These techniques are known to work on real life dogs... No reason they shouldn't work in the game
...Also... you should not be afraid... for fear smells from far away

A nice challenge being a straight rogue isn't it?

They're of the opinion that third is more mechanically focused, but that roleplaying has always been up to the player. They certainly don't agree that "RP gave its place to Min/Maxing, and the power hungry player is now safe from thinking or acting out his character properly."

I personally don't think so. I have observed many of those on forums, and they generally tend towards being low quality as well. Most people aren't good roleplayers, just like most people aren't good actors, or musicians, or scientists, or statisticians. Don't blame the game system for a player's shortcomings.

So VERY WRONG!!

...Imagine Education relying solely on talent... waiting for the next Einstein to push science forth...
Nope that's not how it works. Its the average of any given population that sets the tempo of progress... and its the educational system (among other factors) that sets this "average".
In short: The RP books we read, define what kind of players we become.
I can clearly see from personal experience that players who have gotten into White Wolf at some point, are far better ROLE players than any D&D geek.
Chance? Hardly...
In the early books, White Wolf has touched RPlaying and Storytelling in ways WotC cannot even begin to imagine. TSR wasn't any good at that, i admit, yet a less complicated system lets gamers focus more on the story than the system itself. If a rule did not cover a given situation... hell the group decided on the spot how to resolve it and the story kept its flow... In 3.5... you have to call your lawyer up so as to make a move action..

You dance to the music they play you.

Truth is there is nobody else to blame for the players' shortcomings other than the books they are given, the system they are given.
I 've watched a few session of 4e on the internet so as to witness how they simplified it... yet i could not see the improvements. I cannot see how putting an attack roll on fireball can simplify anything. Nor can i see how a system with... what is it now 4 or 5 PHBs?... can be simple at all.
4e will get heavier than 3.x ...i'm positive about that

When you say "majority", I trust you say the majority of people you play with

ohh... you shouldn't

To be honest, old man, I think you're just complaining about us kids these days and our iPhones, and hula-hoops and solar panels and bottled water and belly piercings and...

Am I? Not really.. Not if you can read past your steadfast beliefs...
I must have struck a cord there somewhere... otherwise i cannot justify such a reaction...
Its funny how you call me old man over and over again... i'm sure we don't have that much of a difference in age.
However, i'd advise you to give a little thought on whom the "old man" really is, between us two, taking into account your 3000 posts in this forum...

 

[Dandu]

?? How does that beat disguise ??

By not being a disguise.

Can you impersonate a figure you can't reach?
Can you impersonate a dead figure?
Can you impersonate a figure that is supposed to be someplace else while you assume his role (e.g. in public), ergo disguise without setting off the alarm?
How good can you act as "the figure"?

I admit, disguise+bluff enables you to do a lot of things that spells cannot. Sort of.

After all, you can always summon a Succubus to impersonate someone, or make a Simulacrum of them. Granted, a Simulacrum requires something that came off of the person, but I imagine that the wizard gets that the same way the Arcane Trickster gets the target's clothes.

Anyways, the Arcane Trickster gets some skills that the Wizard does not. On the other hand, can I not ask what the Arcane Trickster does when knowledge skills are called for?

I know Arcane Tricksters have Knowledge skills, but your Arcane Trickster seems to have a heavy emphasis on roguish skills. At higher levels he need to keep up the skill base he acquired as a Rogue, but the Arcane Trickster only grants 4 skill points per level as opposed to the Rogue's 8, and the wizard levels an Arcane Trickster presumably took after he finished that prestige class only provides 2 per level, and does not have access to rogue skills.

From what you've been saying, an Arcane Trickster will have maxed out Disguise. Presumably, he will also have Bluff as well. You have mentioned Hide and Move Silently, iirc. Spot and Listen seem like they would be important if you plan on sneaking around, as does Search for finding traps. You obviously will need Disable Device and Open Lock to handle the traps. Diplomacy seems like it would be appropriate. This is leaving out other good skills such as Gather Information, Decipher Script, Tumble and UMD.

That's 9 skills, 11 if you count Diplomacy. Then comes the knowledge skills (4 of which are really important, 1 of which is moderately so, 5 of which are less useful), and Concentration and Spellcraft.

Where are you getting all of these skill points since you are pumping Dexterity instead of Intelligence? It seems to me that you end up behind on skills compared to a rogue, and behind on casting compared to a wizard. While the spellcasting makes up for being a poorer rogue, I don't see how it breaks things.

Nope. A maxed out disguise cannot be beat so easily.

I find it interesting that the wizard has to go up against opponents with True Seeing, while an Arcane Trickster doesn't have to contend with opponents who have a good Spot check. A skill that five out of eleven the PHB classes have, and one which many monsters posses. (ie, a Balor has a spot check of 38)

Also, Disguse doesn't really work if you need to impersonate most monsters. I, at least, have a hard time seeing makeup adding the extra body mass that would be necessary to impersonate a troll chieftan.

...Imagine Education relying solely on talent... waiting for the next Einstein to push science forth...
Nope that's not how it works. Its the average of any given population that sets the tempo of progress... and its the educational system (among other factors) that sets this "average".
In short: The RP books we read, define what kind of players we become.

I would disagree, as I also learned to RP from plays, novels, and the people at my gaming table who taught me.

I can clearly see from personal experience that players who have gotten into White Wolf at some point, are far better ROLE players than any D&D geek.
Chance? Hardly...

Have you by chance heard the phase "the plural of evidence is not anecdotes?"

A statistician knows that personal stories are not really applicable on a large scale. It's not solid evidence.

In the early books, White Wolf has touched RPlaying and Storytelling in ways WotC cannot even begin to imagine. TSR wasn't any good at that, i admit, yet a less complicated system lets gamers focus more on the story than the system itself. If a rule did not cover a given situation... hell the group decided on the spot how to resolve it and the story kept its flow... In 3.5... you have to call your lawyer up so as to make a move action..

You dance to the music they play you.

You seem to view people as mindless drones following the instructions in the manual.

Quite frankly, I do not think the evidence you have presented is strong. You have, for example, inferred causation from correlation, a logical fallacy. It is known, for example, that violent individuals are attracted to violent videogames, but it would be a stretch to conclude that violent videogames cause individuals to become violent.

If you want to convince me that WotC's poor writing has caused the decay of roleplaying in D&D, you're going to have to do better.

Am I? Not really.. Not if you can read past your steadfast beliefs...
I must have struck a cord there somewhere... otherwise i cannot justify such a reaction...

Mental activity keeps the mind sharp.

Its funny how you call me old man over and over again... i'm sure we don't have that much of a difference in age.
However, i'd advise you to give a little thought on whom the "old man" really is, between us two, taking into account your 3000 posts in this forum...

In my culture, people who complain endlessly about the next generation while fondly clinging to idealized notions of a grand past are generally assumed to be in the older segment of the population.

Also, large post counts are not a sign of age, only proliferation.

 

[Jimlock]

I know Arcane Tricksters have Knowledge skills, but your Arcane Trickster seems to have a heavy emphasis on roguish skills. At higher levels he need to keep up the skill base he acquired as a Rogue, but the Arcane Trickster only grants 4 skill points per level as opposed to the Rogue's 8, and the wizard levels an Arcane Trickster presumably took after he finished that prestige class only provides 2 per level, and does not have access to rogue skills.

From what you've been saying, an Arcane Trickster will have maxed out Disguise. Presumably, he will also have Bluff as well. You have mentioned Hide and Move Silently, iirc. Spot and Listen seem like they would be important if you plan on sneaking around, as does Search for finding traps. You obviously will need Disable Device and Open Lock to handle the traps. Diplomacy seems like it would be appropriate. This is leaving out other good skills such as Gather Information, Decipher Script, Tumble and UMD.

"seems to have a heavy emphasis on roguish skills"...
That is completely subjective for he is equally allowed all the Wizard skills. Its up to the player to decide how he spends them. I never spoke about "my" AT, I'm speaking about ATs in general.

I think its only natural to assume that one who has taken the road of the AT, will take 2 Levels of the Unseen Seer instead of two Level of Wizard. No shortage of skills there...In case its skills he wants.

Concentration is almost completely useless to an AT. He compensates with the skill tricks i mentioned in my earlier post. I've tried An AT once with minimum concentration ranks and I never had a problem with it.

Gather Information is no big deal... The way i've always played it, its almost useless... Good RP and good ideas is what it takes to find the information you want.
Decipher Script, while a nice skill... i wouldn't go as far as to count it among the good ones...
Tumble...yes, tumble is useful.
Escape artist is VERY important as well. With a couple of skill tricks, you can get out of anywhere with no trouble.

While the AT takes 4 instead of the Rogues's 8, its again only natural to assume that the Average ATs Int score would be higher than the average Rogue's. Thus the gap between their skills is not as big as you describe it. The AT i've tried in the past, was an Illusionist 6th / Rogue 3rd / AT 10th. ( i was not aware of the Unseen Seer at the time, thats why i took another level of wizard) ...I managed to bring him up to 19th level total and then for some irrelevant reasons the specific game group broke down and we stopped playing.
It was a nice experience though... never felt inferior to a Wizard... never felt inferior to a Rogue. Never felt a shortage of skill points.

To conclude... What makes the AT broken , other than his near perfect WIzard and Rogue progression... is a great variety of great options...

I find it interesting that the wizard has to go up against opponents with True Seeing, while an Arcane Trickster doesn't have to contend with opponents who have a good Spot check. A skill that five out of eleven the PHB classes have, and one which many monsters posses. (ie, a Balor has a spot check of 38)

As far i know True Seeing cannot beat a good Hide with proper cover. As far as Spot checks go... an AT that respects himself as a spy, at this level, has a Hide far bigger than 38.

Also, Disguse doesn't really work if you need to impersonate most monsters. I, at least, have a hard time seeing makeup adding the extra body mass that would be necessary to impersonate a troll chieftan.

Unfortunately, thats where the straight Rogue falls back. An AT with the proper ranks in disguise and bluff, the proper skill tricks and with the proper transmutations can be anyone... anytime. The straight Wizard is way inferior in this domain. In fact as far as trespassing, spying, diversion and infiltration goes, the AT is almost unbeatable. Hell, with a few good ideas the AT is capable of slaying the Big Boss in his sleep and taking the Kingdom for his own in no time.

Therefore, so as to judge whether a PrC is broken, you have to see the bigger picture. Although having a couple of high level spell more than the AT can prove useful in a battle-heavy encounter, the Wizard lacks the gamma of options the AT has. The Wizard is not as adaptable to a great variety of encounters that do not require heavy spellcasting.
While playing the 19th Level AT i spoke of above, i really felt he was broken with all those great options available to me. You see... focusing solely on arithmetics is clearly not the only way to judge a broken PrC, or a broken game.

The game has to be challenging. Not a walk in the park

I would disagree, as I also learned to RP from plays, novels, and the people at my gaming table who taught me.

?????
Are you kidding me???
While novels and art in general provide inspiration for sure, it does not "teach" you how to role-play. People at your gaming table either have learned to play by reading the books, or... by other players who have read the books.
Its pretty ignorant to imply that you are so "free spirited" that you don't get LARGELY (if not completely) influenced by the game-books you buy for your game. If most of the books you use to play your games are filled with +2s and -5s and god knows what algorithm... believe me it GREATLY influences how you play your game.

Ohh... and forgive me if i fail to see the great RPlayer in you, inspired and taught by the "plays" he sees... All i see is a Rules-Lawyer that, indeed, knows his rules, i give you that one... yet a gamer who is not "convincing" of anything else beyond that.

Even though i made repeated attempts (yet obviously futile) to focus on something else beyond the "difference of a couple of spell levels", you kept going back at it, obviously, because you felt safe in your field of expertise (rules and Min/Maxing).

You see "in my culture" people are not so "awesome" as you clearly consider yourself, and they tend to be molded by the social frame around them. Me and gamers around me tend to be shaped by the books we buy to play our game.
In hopes of finding out what is good for my game, and because i tend to be influenced by what i read, i attempt to find the reasons behind a product's release, for it is not always clear what is good or bad.

You seem to view people as mindless drones following the instructions in the manual.

Clearly, You are oblivious of the fact that the Industry forces on you its "goods". You get your falsified sense of freedom by stretching a system to its very limits, happy to have found a way of turning a dragon into a wizard's familiar...

Your brain is so filled with numbers, that you are no longer capable of judging what a game should provide to the people... what a game is about. Save yourself some memory space, go solely into videogaming. Lighten your burden.

A statistician knows that personal stories are not really applicable on a large scale. It's not solid evidence.

Quite frankly, I do not think the evidence you have presented is strong. You have, for example, inferred causation from correlation, a logical fallacy. It is known, for example, that violent individuals are attracted to violent videogames, but it would be a stretch to conclude that violent videogames cause individuals to become violent.

If you want to convince me that WotC's poor writing has caused the decay of roleplaying in D&D, you're going to have to do better.

Oh, i'm not gonna conduct a statistical research so that you play with your numbers Dandu...

I'm so sorry for putting facts around me on a balance so as to reach my own conclusions...

In my culture, people who complain endlessly about the next generation while fondly clinging to idealized notions of a grand past are generally assumed to be in the older segment of the population.

Please, do not justify yourself through your culture, for your inability to comprehend your own narrowmindedness.

a piece of advise: Do not hide behind sarcasm. It really does not convince that you "Maintain your cool".

Mental activity keeps the mind sharp.

Go ahead Rain-Man... count those matches...

 

[Dandu]

I think its only natural to assume that one who has taken the road of the AT, will take 2 Levels of the Unseen Seer instead of two Level of Wizard. No shortage of skills there...In case its skills he wants.

Why, if we're allowing the AT levels in Unseen Seer, am I allowed to use non-core wizard ACFs and feats to dramatically boost a wizard's power?

Concentration is almost completely useless to an AT. He compensates with the skill tricks i mentioned in my earlier post. I've tried An AT once with minimum concentration ranks and I never had a problem with it.

So you never had to cast when threatened by an enemy, or under difficult environmental conditions? Good for you. However, since these situations *do* come up, you see why spellcasters need to invest in it.

While the AT takes 4 instead of the Rogues's 8, its again only natural to assume that the Average ATs Int score would be higher than the average Rogue's.

So your AT has high Int and high Dex? Interesting. You seem to have the highest ability score necessary at any time to best support your argument.

Thus the gap between their skills is not as big as you describe it. The AT i've tried in the past, was an Illusionist 6th / Rogue 3rd / AT 10th. ( i was not aware of the Unseen Seer at the time, thats why i took another level of wizard) ...I managed to bring him up to 19th level total and then for some irrelevant reasons the specific game group broke down and we stopped playing.
It was a nice experience though... never felt inferior to a Wizard... never felt inferior to a Rogue. Never felt a shortage of skill points.

Quite frankly, I see this as a result of having more skill points than a wizard (combined with a wizard played to less than the full potential), and having enough spell power to not be inferior to a Rogue.

To conclude... What makes the AT broken , other than his near perfect WIzard and Rogue progression... is a great variety of great options...

Having a variety of options makes a character versatile, but not broken. And as has been *repeatedly* pointed out to you before, losing three caster levels is not "near perfect" wizard progression, nor is losing 4 skill points "near perfect" rogue progression.

Let me just ask you: If the Arcane Trickster is as broken as you claim, how come the character optimization boards, which have come up with innumerable truly broken builds, consider it underwhelming? Your first response will probably be that they are too focused on the numbers and not on the roleplaying, but many such as JaronK favor skill heavy characters in his real life games and yet still shares my opinion.

As far i know True Seeing cannot beat a good Hide with proper cover.

Blindsense, Blindsight, Tremorsense, Lifesight, Mindsight, Scent... this has all been covered before.

As far as Spot checks go... an AT that respects himself as a spy, at this level, has a Hide far bigger than 38.

Let's see... at most, you get 23 ranks in Hide. Assuming a 16 in Dex (gotta have a good Int score, after all) pumped with the 5 stat points from levels, a +5 tome and a +6 item, that gets you a score of 32, which is a modifier of +11. Toss in and Robe of Blending or Ring of the Chameleon, plus another +2 from misc sources and you get a total result of 46.

Of course, the Balor isn't using any items; even a simple Eyes of the Eagle, which grant +5 to spot, will give him a score of +43...

Unfortunately, thats where the straight Rogue falls back. An AT with the proper ranks in disguise and bluff, the proper skill tricks and with the proper transmutations can be anyone... anytime.

So when the wizard trues to transmute himself, he has to face opponents with True Seeing, who will pierce his disguise. When the AT does it...

The straight Wizard is way inferior in this domain. In fact as far as trespassing, spying, diversion and infiltration goes, the AT is almost unbeatable.

The AT does get better skills, but when it comes to spying, the Wizard will Divination spells for that before the AT. As for diversion, I'm pretty sure that there are some good spells for that too. Summons do come to mind.

Also, I'm still not convinced it's that good at trespassing and infiltration considering the difficulty in fooling Blindsense, Blindsight, etc...

Hell, with a few good ideas the AT is capable of slaying the Big Boss in his sleep and taking the Kingdom for his own in no time.

... Which the wizard is... incapable of doing? Contact Other Plane+Scry+Time Stop+Teleport+Shenanagans is not going to be able to destroy an enemy in his sleep and take over his dominion?

Therefore, so as to judge whether a PrC is broken, you have to see the bigger picture. Although having a couple of high level spell more than the AT can prove useful in a battle-heavy encounter, the Wizard lacks the gamma of options the AT has. The Wizard is not as adaptable to a great variety of encounters that do not require heavy spellcasting.

On the flip side, the AT is not as adaptable to a great variety of encounters that *do* require spellcasting.

Think of the whole picture here.

While playing the 19th Level AT i spoke of above, i really felt he was broken with all those great options available to me. You see... focusing solely on arithmetics is clearly not the only way to judge a broken PrC, or a broken game.

Well, when playing the wizard I linked to above, I really felt that he was broken with all the great options available to him. Stopping Time, 8.33 hours of Shapechange, 8.33 hours of immunity to surprises and being flatfooted, the ability to turn one form of matter into any other, invert gravity, summon monsters capable of wiping out entire armies, possess bodies...

?????
Are you kidding me???
While novels and art in general provide inspiration for sure, it does not "teach" you how to role-play. People at your gaming table either have learned to play by reading the books, or... by other players who have read the books.

Its pretty ignorant to imply that you are so "free spirited" that you don't get LARGELY (if not completely) influenced by the game-books you buy for your game.

Are you the one who is kidding me?

I find it somewhat presumptuous of you to assume knowledge of how I learned to play the game. I never really read the sections in the PHB on how to roleplay, nor, come to think of it, did most of my first group. We figured it out by ourselves.

If most of the books you use to play your games are filled with +2s and -5s and god knows what algorithm... believe me it GREATLY influences how you play your game.

I hear GURPS is rather like that, and people who play GURPS are, to my knowledge, no less roleplayers than those of other kinds.

Ohh... and forgive me if i fail to see the great RPlayer in you, inspired and taught by the "plays" he sees... All i see is a Rules-Lawyer that, indeed, knows his rules, i give you that one... yet a gamer who is not "convincing" of anything else beyond that.

I must apologize; the roleplaying aspect of me does not come across much in a discussion of the rules. If you would wish to discuss roleplaying, please create a thread for it and I will gladly contribute.

Even though i made repeated attempts (yet obviously futile) to focus on something else beyond the "difference of a couple of spell levels", you kept going back at it, obviously, because you felt safe in your field of expertise (rules and Min/Maxing).

We do seem to be in a rules forum, so forgive me for talking about the rules.

Anyways, I have seen you say that the AT is more "powerful" because he has more options. Yes, I agree that the AT has options a wizard does not, in skills. And it is also true that a wizard has options the AT does not, in spells.

Skills are useful, but 9th level spells pack quite a lot of power. The situation is not quite as one sided as you believe.

You see "in my culture" people are not so "awesome" as you clearly consider yourself, and they tend to be molded by the social frame around them. Me and gamers around me tend to be shaped by the books we buy to play our game.
In hopes of finding out what is good for my game, and because i tend to be influenced by what i read, i attempt to find the reasons behind a product's release, for it is not always clear what is good or bad.

I would not argue that people are not shaped by society, but there is so much more to the society of D&D than just what is in the rules books. There are actors who play, and bring in skills they learned on stage. There are Renaissance Fair people who pretend to be knights for a hobby. There are roleplayers from many different systems, from freeform (no rules at all) to Exalted, Vampire, Paranoia...

It's not just the books.

Your brain is so filled with numbers, that you are no longer capable of judging what a game should provide to the people... what a game is about. Save yourself some memory space, go solely into videogaming. Lighten your burden.

I actually do play lots of videogames in addition to tabletop RPGs. I do find them rather entertaining.

Oh, i'm not gonna conduct a statistical research so that you play with your numbers Dandu...

Then may I suggest that you do not claim to have statistics on your side? Making such claims without the evidence to back it up is not a good idea.

Please, do not justify yourself through your culture, for your inability to comprehend your own narrowmindedness.

I admit, I am rather narrowminded at times, and for that I apologize. I realize that doggedly clinging to my beliefs despite logically sound arguments must make me look very stubborn and foolish. I shall make a note not to hang on to my beliefs when someone presents me with proper evidence that my position is incorrect. Thank you for teaching me this lesson in being openminded.

 

[Jimlock]

Why, if we're allowing the AT levels in Unseen Seer, am I allowed to use non-core wizard ACFs and feats to dramatically boost a wizard's power?

???
You are beginning to not make sense...
Ever since this debate started, i'm arguing how non-core sources are broken, how PrCs are broken, and how all this affects the core-only classes by rendering them weak in comparison.

You never complained about Skill Tricks (found in Complete Scoundrel), about the Practiced Spell caster Feat (Found in Complete MAge... or Complete Arcane.. don't remember)... and now you complain about me referencing yet another PrC in one of the books i've already used in my arguments?

You see... any stupid player who wants to break the game by creating a super powerful character to satisfy his ego, does not have any false sense of moral so as to not use everything out there to attain his goal. He is certainly not gonna stick to what is in the DMG..

And please do not come up with an answer like "This was a Wizard Vs AT thing only" cause this war is in your head only. It's been quite a few posts that I'm trying to say something else here.

If you feel like you have to dip a straight PHB Wizard into non-core so as antagonize efficiently a non-core character, this only proves how broken non core-books really are. Even more it proves the target-group these products are targeting.

I used the AT as an "example" for i've had a recent experience with it. I could have made my life a lot easier by arguing over some other core PrC that gives full spell progression and does not require levels in a non spellcasting class (The Red Wizard does spring to mind), or a non-core PrC (Mater Specialist springs to mind... among other) that is equally broken.

But lets keep the AT shall we?..

So you never had to cast when threatened by an enemy, or under difficult environmental conditions? Good for you. However, since these situations *do* come up, you see why spellcasters need to invest in it.

What a waste of sarcasm... really. Perhaps you should check the skills tricks i posted earlier... oh wait here is one of them right here...

ConCeal sPellCasTIng [ManIPulaTIon]
You can cast spells without others noticing . Prerequisite: Concentration 1 rank, Sleight of Hand 5
ranks, Spellcraft 1 rank . Benefit: You can cast a spell without revealing that you
are doing so . Make a Sleight of Hand check as part of the action used to cast the spell, opposed by the Spot checks of onlookers . If you are successful, an observer can’t tell that you’re casting a spell . That observer cannot make an attack of opportunity against you for casting, nor can it attempt to counter your spell

And yes, it is quite rare that i have to cast spells in the heart of a hurricane.

So your AT has high Int and high Dex? Interesting. You seem to have the highest ability score necessary at any time to best support your argument.

???
When did i use ability score numbers to support my arguments?? Its you that's been talking about your 32s and your 16s all along.

And forgive me for tricking you by assuming that an average AT, a PrC based on a Rogue (a DEX based class) and a Wizard (INT based class),
is only normal to focus on those two abilities out of the six every character has.

What IS interesting though, is that you always seem to have the right spell in your spellbook, or even memorized!...to counter an AT's non spellcasting "advantages", that an AT always has "on" him.

Let me just ask you: If the Arcane Trickster is as broken as you claim, how come the character optimization boards, which have come up with innumerable truly broken builds, consider it underwhelming? Your first response will probably be that they are too focused on the numbers and not on the roleplaying, but many such as JaronK favor skill heavy characters in his real life games and yet still shares my opinion.

Having a variety of options makes a character versatile, but not broken.

Forgive me for not kneeling before the Holy Inquisition of RPGs, but i consider such boards nothing more than a "waste of time".
And yes, they do value numbers over RP.

In fact, when people get addicted to creating those builds, they tend to forget not only RP, but also the innumerable complications stories tend to have. In a good story, there are politics... intrigue... fighting, machinations, war, even romance... etc. etc. You mix these up correctly with character choice and the results are infinite.
What i'm trying to say is that, when called to judge whether something is broken, one has to take into account that a character will be involved in a great number of encounters and situations that are very different between them... and that he will not always be "packed" with the right tools so as to deal with the obstacles before him.

Therefore, versatility equals power.

You probably disagree, but me, among other players i know, think very highly of the Rogue. The Rogue, in a story that respects itself (Not some... "There is a prize for the one to slay the goblins in the cave") tends to blossom. He dominates the skills table, he can fight without making a fool of himself, and by combining the very skills given to him, he can spy, infiltrate, impersonate, lie, act, convince... he is very versatile as he is, even without magic.

The straight Wizard, while being a brilliant class, is one that in order to deal with something and be effective about it, he requires at least some preparation. There is absolutely no doubt, that when a wizard is adequately prepared, there are no obstacles to hamper his way. If you have to face a Wizard prepared for you, all you can do is pray that it will be short and painless...
On the other hand, while there are great spell for almost anything, a campaign that respects itself does not have "spells on sale!" in every store across town. Rarity of magic, is a thing that, even thouh it varies from game to game, is often abused. Ever since 1e books it has been clearly stated that a wizard should not find it easy to obtain his spells, for there are very few people on each world to wield such powers.
People who accuse wizards for being broken, tend to forget this very important factor.
D&D is not meant to be "oblivion" or some MMORPG.

Taking all the above into account, one has to consider a few other things as well.

Spells do run out. A second wave of enemies or continuous encounters can prove very problematic to a wizard and martial classes, including the rogue, behave better when this happens.

Its not only in Faerun that characters can find themselves in areas where magic is negated. Even more, there are many areas across a multitude of settings where certain schools of magic do not function at all, or function problematically. As a player, i have found myself quite often in situations like this. it is my understanding that most DMs, including myself employ such techniques so as to keep their game challenging, even for high level spell casters. Not only is it a matter of balance, it is logical as well, for many great villains and personalities across a world are smart enough to protect themselves in a number of ways, including protection from magic. The AT i used to play was once caught by the elves of Vesve Forest (GreyHawk) and was thrown into a cell with Antimagic Field. The roguish side of the AT is what made my escape possible.

If "near perfect" is not your thing, i think I have every right to say: that an AT comes with a "very good" Wizard progression, and a "very good" Rogue progression as well.

So when you blend those two awesome classes together into one, while giving so much from both sides, you have a character who is capable of reacting without preparation or thought in a bigger number of situations than he should. A straight Rogue and a straight Wizard are more prone to backtracking from a given situation so as to "think things over". And this is what keeps a game challenging and fun. This is what keeps the characters creative. This is the point of a game.

With all the above in mind, i conclude that the AT is broken.

Now if we were to put a Wizard and an AT on top of two separate mountains, severed by a great valley upon which two mighty armies clash, and have the two spellcasters wage war against one another... while the skies flash with thunder...well its clear to me that chances are with the wizard... but this is not the average day of a character... would you agree?

(still... up close...it's a 50% chance...initiative will tell)

So when the wizard trues to transmute himself, he has to face opponents with True Seeing, who will pierce his disguise. When the AT does it...

????
Wow you are really having a hard time to see my points..

While they are both equally helpless under True Seeing when using transmutations, when True Seeing is not an obstacle the wizard is inferior in this game.
The wizards rolls his poor disguise +10, while the AT rolls his great disguise powered by a couple of skill tricks +10.
Don't forget that when body mass is not an obstacle, the AT rolls only with his Disguise skill, thus being undetectable by True Seeing as well.

Blindsense, Blindsight, Tremorsense, Lifesight, Mindsight, Scent... this has all been covered before.

Also, I'm still not convinced it's that good at trespassing and infiltration considering the difficulty in fooling Blindsense, Blindsight, etc...

Superior Invisibility combined with Hide = completely undetectable. The wizard is always subject to True Seeing (due to lack of Hide).

I find it somewhat presumptuous of you to assume knowledge of how I learned to play the game. I never really read the sections in the PHB on how to roleplay, nor, come to think of it, did most of my first group. We figured it out by ourselves.

ohhh right, and claiming that you are "so well educated on RP" that you don't get influenced on how or how much you role-play by the books, the very system you play is not presumptuous?... if not a joke?

As far as i know... Rules-lawyers and Minmaxers are quite the opposite of good RPs...
Your are a pretty good Rules-Lawyer, and a Minmaxer as you claim...
I would have gladly tried to believe, that you are a good RP except... you are not convincing whatsoever.
Every line... hell every word you've written so far did not hint ONCE some passion or love for RP and storytelling.
All i see is someone anxious whether his wizard will win on the top of his mountain...

I must apologize; the roleplaying aspect of me does not come across much in a discussion of the rules. If you would wish to discuss roleplaying, please create a thread for it and I will gladly contribute.
We do seem to be in a rules forum, so forgive me for talking about the rules.

D&D Legacy Discussion
This forum is for pre-4E D&D Rules questions, discussion, house rules and fan creations

Does "discussion" prohibit talk on RP?, storytelling? the evolution of a game? My english can't be that bad...

Ohh.. there are plenty of threads under "D&D Legacy Discussion" that are non rule-ish
hey... Try this one out...share your 50 cents...
Pathfinder New DM looking for advice... - EN World: Your Daily RPG Magazine

With your 3000+ posts you should know, that in forums topics often change... and off-topic talk can sometimes prove to be even more in-topic than the topic itself... have a little faith!!

If you don't want to talk about certain stuff you should say so... don't hide behind your finger...please.

Then may I suggest that you do not claim to have statistics on your side? Making such claims without the evidence to back it up is not a good idea.

Ohhh... come on Dandu don't be such a wise-a*s
All i ever argued, was that i observe the evolution of a game through the gaming community around me. The word "statistics" was used, perhaps poorly i admit, in order to portray this "observation". Statistics come with numbers, and as far as i remember i didn't give any. But i'm sure you know all that... you are just talking the talk...

I admit, I am rather narrowminded at times, and for that I apologize. I realize that doggedly clinging to my beliefs despite logically sound arguments must make me look very stubborn and foolish. I shall make a note not to hang on to my beliefs when someone presents me with proper evidence that my position is incorrect. Thank you for teaching me this lesson in being openminded.

...

you are welcome..

 

[kitcik]

There is so much wrong with this post it is hard to decide where to start.

You see... any stupid player who wants to break the game by creating a super powerful character to satisfy his ego, does not have any false sense of moral so as to not use everything out there to attain his goal. He is certainly not gonna stick to what is in the DMG..

So:
1) Using splatbooks is not a matter of personal taste, it is amoral - "your fun is wrong!"
2) When you created your "broken" Arcane Trickster, was that before you cured yourself of the evil and stupidity?

What a waste of sarcasm... really. Perhaps you should check the skills tricks i posted earlier... oh wait here is one of them right here...

ConCeal sPellCasTIng [ManIPulaTIon]
You can cast spells without others noticing . Prerequisite: Concentration 1 rank, Sleight of Hand 5
ranks, Spellcraft 1 rank . Benefit: You can cast a spell without revealing that you
are doing so . Make a Sleight of Hand check as part of the action used to cast the spell, opposed by the Spot checks of onlookers . If you are successful, an observer can’t tell that you’re casting a spell . That observer cannot make an attack of opportunity against you for casting, nor can it attempt to counter your spell

Your ever-full skill point bag seems to be working well, although how you plan to get this secondary skill at a high enough rank to avoid spot checks is questionable at best.

Forgive me for not kneeling before the Holy Inquisition of RPGs, but i consider such boards nothing more than a "waste of time".
And yes, they do value numbers over RP.

While RP is the most important part of the game, this thread is about "the AT is broken in comparison to the wizard." Seems to me numbers are important. Also, isn't forming your opinions based on the limited experience of a limited group of people while ignoring the extensive analysis performed by a large group of people tantamount to sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "I can't hear you! I can't hear you!"

What i'm trying to say is that, when called to judge whether something is broken, one has to take into account that a character will be involved in a great number of encounters and situations that are very different between them... and that he will not always be "packed" with the right tools so as to deal with the obstacles before him.

Therefore, versatility equals power.

And two handfuls of extra 8th and 9th level spells is less versatile than 20 extra skill points? I don't get this argument.

You probably disagree, but me, among other players i know, think very highly of the Rogue.

That about says it all as far as ability to analyze relative power of classes.

On the other hand, while there are great spell for almost anything, a campaign that respects itself does not have "spells on sale!" in every store across town. Rarity of magic, is a thing that, even thouh it varies from game to game, is often abused. Ever since 1e books it has been clearly stated that a wizard should not find it easy to obtain his spells, for there are very few people on each world to wield such powers.
People who accuse wizards for being broken, tend to forget this very important factor.

For better or worse, that is how 3.5 is designed. That is an argument between systems and does not bear on the power of a 3.5 wizard. Oh, and stating that a campaign where magic is widely available does not "respect itself" is another "your fun is bad" statement.

Spells do run out. A second wave of enemies or continuous encounters can prove very problematic to a wizard and martial classes, including the rogue, behave better when this happens.

If your spells run out and you are forced to act without your spells as a 20th level wizard, you are doing something wrong. Maybe it is your inability to properly play a wizard that makes you think the back-up skills of an AT are better than the primary skills of a wizard - that security blanket of mundane skills is just so wonderful.

If "near perfect" is not your thing, i think I have every right to say: that an AT comes with a "very good" Wizard progression, and a "very good" Rogue progression as well.

I agree. But that combination is still less powerful than a perfect wizard progression.

This is the point of a game.

The point of the game is t have fun. Your fun is no better than anyone else's.

With all the above in mind, i conclude that the AT is broken.

To me, that's like saying "based on my analysis of the crispness of bacon, I conclude that the monk is overpowered," but maybe it is just me.

ohhh right, and claiming that you are "so well educated on RP" that you don't get influenced on how or how much you role-play by the books, the very system you play is not presumptuous?... if not a joke?

We don't know if he is a good RPer, all we can tell without meeting him os that he is a better charop than you. Not sure if that warrants insults.

As far as i know... Rules-lawyers and Minmaxers are quite the opposite of good RPs...

They are not mutually exclusive, but rather overlap quite extensively. So, again that shows the breadth of your knowledge.

Every line... hell every word you've written so far did not hint ONCE some passion or love for RP and storytelling.
All i see is someone anxious whether his wizard will win on the top of his mountain...

And the point of this thread was that a character class was broken? Seems like you started the debate on power. If you want an RP discussion, start one.

you are welcome..

ROF