Shadowdancers

[WizarDru]

Re: Re: HiPS

Well, there's rules-broken, and then there's plausibility-broken. If I can't see in my head what something looks like, or if it looks goofy when I imagine it, I'll want to change it.

I'm not nearly so concerned with balance as I am with coolness. A Shadowdancer hiding in the shadow of a kobold is uncool, in my opinion; thus my change to the rules.

Daniel

I think we should be able to agree that such a situation is a clear violation of the spirit of the ability, if not the exact letter of it. The DMG entry makes it clear that there needs to be a sufficient amount of shadow, even if the SRD does not. Hiding in an ogre or dragon's shadow? Sure. Any DM that allows a player to abuse Shadowdancer by hiding in a kobold's shadow gets what he deserves.

 

[Sejs]

If you're having a hard time imagining what a shadowdancer doing HiPS would look like, etc.. again, video provides an answer.


Anime.

Ninja Scroll.

There's one bad guy by the name of Shijima. This guy...

He only has a few scenes in the picture, but he provides a good example of Hide In Plain Sight a number of times.

 

[mythago]

Why is it "uncool"? Is a big burly fighter with a SD level prohibited from hiding in an elf's shadow? What if it's high noon and the shadows are really short--would that be uncool, and the fighter has to wait until evening when the shadows are long?

Please remember that it's a SUPERNATURAL ability; the SD basically merges with the stuff of shadow to be concealed from ordinary sight. Size doesn't matter.

The DMG entry makes it clear that there needs to be a sufficient amount of shadow

Wrong. Read the DMG. The exact rule is that the shadowdancer has to be within 10' of "some sort of shadow." Period. Nothing about size classes, requirements, or who/what the shadow belongs to. (Though the SD can't hide in her own shadow, and this is reasonable.)

Believe me, it doesn't turn you into a combat monster. Let's not forget that it isn't invisibility ; it still requires a Hide check, which can be blown.

It's fantastic for recon, getting out of trouble, and prepping for a sneak attack, but it is not as overpowered as you guys seem to think. I play a SD in a game with a very rules-stern GM, and it's never been a problem.

 

[WizarDru]

Wrong. Read the DMG. The exact rule is that the shadowdancer has to be within 10' of "some sort of shadow." Period. Nothing about size classes, requirements, or who/what the shadow belongs to. (Though the SD can't hide in her own shadow, and this is reasonable.)

At work, so I can't. I'll check it when I get home, but it's hardly unlikely that I've misremembered. Even so, I wouldn't allow it to work...it seems to violate the class description to some degree, in favor of a more rules-lawlery interpetation.

Believe me, it doesn't turn you into a combat monster. Let's not forget that it isn't invisibility ; it still requires a Hide check, which can be blown.

Requiring a hide check at later levels is the equivalent of saying 'Don't Roll a 1'. Last saturday, the party rogue/shadowdancer/gatecrasher turned up a 54 hide. And I don't consider her unbalanced.

It's fantastic for recon, getting out of trouble, and prepping for a sneak attack, but it is not as overpowered as you guys seem to think. I play a SD in a game with a very rules-stern GM, and it's never been a problem.

I assume you don't mean me when you say 'you guys', since I'm arguing for, not against. In the specific instance of hiding in a Kobold's shadow, yes, but as a class on a whole, No. Most people who complain about stuff like this never actually have played in a game to see how it actually works out.

On very rare occasions, the Rog/SR/GC gets in some massive whallops....but on the same night that she got a 54 on her hide, the party Paladin rolled four attacks, three of which were criticals. Add to that the fact that he'd power attacked, had improved critical and quite a few other feats for his greatsword...well, the rogue certainly didn't feel overpowered when she sneaked a few moments later.

 

[Pielorinho]

Why is it "uncool"? Is a big burly fighter with a SD level prohibited from hiding in an elf's shadow?

Please remember that it's a SUPERNATURAL ability; the SD basically merges with the stuff of shadow to be concealed from ordinary sight. Size doesn't matter.

It's fantastic for recon, getting out of trouble, and prepping for a sneak attack, but it is not as overpowered as you guys seem to think.

Let me repeat: I'm not concerned about the power of it so much as I'm concerned about the coolness of it. IMC, a big burly fighter with a SD is prohibited from hiding in an elf's shadow, or in a shadow at noon. Any shadow that you can't fit in, you can't hide in.

I know it's a supernatural ability, as I stated above; I also konw that it looks goofy in my head for someone to hide in a shadow smaller than they are.

Fortunately for you, you don't have to play in my campaign .

Daniel

 

[Sejs]

Word for word, no emphasis or argument from me. Here's the straight dope ~ quote from the DMG.

Hide in Plain Sight: Shadowdancers can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as they are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, shadowdancers can hide themselves from viewin the open without anything to actually hide behind. They cannot, however, hide in their own shadows. Hide in plain sight is a supernatural ability.

 

[Pielorinho]

Word for word, no emphasis or argument from me. Here's the straight dope ~ quote from the DMG.

Hide in Plain Sight: Shadowdancers can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as they are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, shadowdancers can hide themselves from viewin the open without anything to actually hide behind. They cannot, however, hide in their own shadows. Hide in plain sight is a supernatural ability.

A technical reading of this would allow a shadowdancer to hide virtually anywhere: unless the ground is either perfectly smooth or is itself luminescent, there will be tiny shadows caused by irregularities in the ground. And if there's so much as a pebble on the ground, they can hide in it. And if there's not, a shadowdancer with quickdraw can pull out a dagger (a free action), drop it (a free action), and hide in the dagger's shadow.

Goofy stuff, if you ask me.

Daniel

 

[Sejs]

There we go. Now that the description is handy for refrence, my take on how it works.


Say you're in a 20ft x 20ft room, 10ft high. No features or windows. One entry way, a door on one wall that opens into the room. The only furnishing is a single chair in the exact center of the room. Light is coming from overhead by way of a glass ball enchanted with permanant light spell. You are 10ft from both the door, and the chair, standing between the two, out in the open.

Someone opens the door, to interact with you in some way. You don't want to interact with them, so you decide to Hide In Plain Sight. Your options would be: use the shadows under the chair, use the shadows behind the door that was just opened into the room, use the shadow of the man in the doorway. You are within 10 feet of all of these. You take a standard action to use HiPS (it being all supernatural and whatnot) and make a Hide check, opposed by the other guy's Spot check. If you succeed, you disappear from sight. Now here's the rub..

Say you hide under the chair. If the guy overturns the chair... you appear. Your hiding spot was ruined. You can take another standard action on your turn to pick another hiding spot.

Say you were hiding in the shadows behind the opened door. If the guy steps into the room and closes the door... you appear. The shadows went away when the door was closed. Again, you can hide again, but until your turn comes up, you're visible.

Say you were hiding in the guy's shadow. If he takes a 5ft step backward out of the room... you appear. Your hiding spot just went outside of your range. Likewise, if you hide in the door shadow, or the chair shadow, and you move more than 10ft away from them, you appear, because you and your 'anchor' became more than 10ft seperate

 

[Sejs]

Goofy stuff, if you ask me.

More goofy then someone casting Invisibility? Or someone casting chamelion skin? Or someone casting rope trick climbing up, and pulling the rope in with him?

Don't forget that HiPSing is pretty darn limiting on what you can do while hiding. You still take up physical space, you still make noise, you still give off scent, and you can't move more than 10ft from your anchor. You can try to Hide from one shadow to another, assuming they're within 10ft of one another, and you risk blowing it every time.

I'm failing to see where the problem is here, it's less powerful then a 1st level spell. As for the hiding under a pebble, or a dagger.. try again. Unless the source of light is on, or near the ground, and object laying on the floor doesn't give off a shadow. Go ahead and drop a pen on the ground, and look for the shadow. Now if the threw a dagger so that it stuck point first into the ground, stick up at an angle, yeah.. there's a shadow there. But the mystery dagger is also very very suspicious.

 

[WizarDru]

Say you hide under the chair. If the guy overturns the chair... you appear. Your hiding spot was ruined. You can take another standard action on your turn to pick another hiding spot.

Say you were hiding in the shadows behind the opened door. If the guy steps into the room and closes the door... you appear. The shadows went away when the door was closed. Again, you can hide again, but until your turn comes up, you're visible.

Say you were hiding in the guy's shadow. If he takes a 5ft step backward out of the room... you appear. Your hiding spot just went outside of your range. Likewise, if you hide in the door shadow, or the chair shadow, and you move more than 10ft away from them, you appear, because you and your 'anchor' became more than 10ft seperate

Your perogative, of course...but I tend to try and remove additional rules considerations from my game, not introduce more of them. I'd rather a dash of common sense to the ability, than get into long rules discussions of when the character can and can't be seen. The character is hiding, not physically transforming. I see the ability as essentially blending so well with the shadow as to be impossible to see, even directly in front of someone. If that PC you mention is under the chair and it gets moved, do you think they're going to automatically accept being seen, after rolling at 50+ hide check? I know I wouldn't be happy, if it were me. But if this works for you, then more power to you.