Shadowdancers

Let me repeat: I'm not concerned about the power of it so much as I'm concerned about the coolness of it.

Well, YMMV, but I think it's pretty cool. ;)

It's an eerie, unnatural thing--the shadowdancer doesn't just hide, she folds into the shadow, becoming shadowstuff herself.

Think of what a failed Hide check would do. "You suddenly notice that the dwarf's shadow isn't normal--it seems to be overlapped with the shadow of, well, an elf." Much cooler than "You spot an elf hiding in the shadows."

If somebody is watching her do this, it is very, very clear that this isn't just a clever rogue stepping into a dark space.

As for the 'hiding in a pebble' aspect, the alternative is to fuss around with new rules about size and relative volume and time of day. Bo-ring.
 

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More goofy then someone casting Invisibility? Or someone casting chamelion skin? Or someone casting rope trick climbing up, and pulling the rope in with him?

To me, yes. I'm not trying to persuade you to play it differently; I'm just telling you how I play it. What's the problem?

I'm failing to see where the problem is here, it's less powerful then a 1st level spell.

Maybe there's your problem. For the third time, I object to the hiding-in-a-pebble's-shadow because it's goofy to me, not because of its power-level.

As for the shadow cast by a pen: there's a pen on my desk right now, a ruler lying flat, a phone message. All of them cast barely-visible shadows that I'm looking at right now: the pen's shadow is probably less than two square inches. Nonetheless, they all cast shadows, in which technically a SD can hide.

Not IMC. Fortunately, you don't have to play a SD IMC :).

Daniel
 

Before I begin my comments in earnest, I just want to thank you all for making this relatively innocuous (I thought) topic such a hotly debated issue.

Now, for the record:
** I do not think that HiPS is broken as written -- I do think that allowing for my player's intended use of the ability would be. Please don't confuse the two.
** I'm not intending to let this player do anything absurd or improper, and my DM skills are just fine thank you. I wanted to hear how other DMs (and players) had dealt with shadowdancers and HiPS since no one in our group has possessed an ability similar to this.
** I understand that the PC in question stills gives off scent; makes noise; has a reduced movement rate; can be located through tremorsense; etc. I was simply trying to ascertain how others had ruled on an acceptable level of shadows in which to hide. Clearly there is no consensus here, with some going strictly by the rules and others applying a degree of realism to the equation.
** I had forgotten about the use of a supernatural ability requiring a standard action...and that helps eliminate my player's desire to make HiPS = a sneak attack every round.

By all means keep going folks -- you're giving me lots of food for thought. But please don't read too far into my question or assume I'm an incapable DM. Not all of us have had the good fortune to deal with every scenario or rule just yet :).
 

Quickbeam said:
By all means keep going folks -- you're giving me lots of food for thought. But please don't read too far into my question or assume I'm an incapable DM. Not all of us have had the good fortune to deal with every scenario or rule just yet :).

I don't recall even implying anything against your DM skills, QB. Unless you took my mention that a DM who lets a SD hide in kobold shadow as a reflection on your particular DM-ing style. Quite honestly, even if you let the SD do sneak attacks every time they could attack a creature vulnerable to it, they still wouldn't outperform a fighter. I don't see your SD's tactic as even that broken, unless bolstered by other factors you haven't mentioned.
 

mythago said:


Well, YMMV, but I think it's pretty cool. ;)

It's an eerie, unnatural thing--the shadowdancer doesn't just hide, she folds into the shadow, becoming shadowstuff herself.

An interesting idea, but I don't think the rules reflect this. The shadowdancer doesn't become incorporeal, like shadows both undead and natural are. The SD doesn't become two-dimensional. The SD doesn't change size or shape. The SD's armor class doesn't change. The SD doesn't even stop casting a shadow.

Although the rules don't sepcify this, I think it should be considered an illusion (glamer) effect. I would allow the SD to stop casting a shadow, but I would require the SD to be within 10' of a shadow in order to use the effect.

Daniel
 

Bah!

Any shadow is good enough to hide in plain sight, IMHO, because the SD isn't actually hiding in one of the shadows...

It's more like he pulls the shadows from around him, blending them into his form, and casting them into the eyes of those who observe him.

Imagine the shadows around him curling up into him, making parts of him invisible, twisting around him, making him indistinct and blurry, parts of him bleeding off like rivulets of black and gray, his skin and gear flashing in colors and invisibility...

When a creature hides, you can't see him...so it's basically like being invisible, but you're concealed by something.

So when you hide in plain sight, you do largely become invisible.

And because the ability is supernatural, a magical talent, you don't need more than minimal shadows to wrap around you...you can stretch and weave it to suit your needs.

Sakes, you'd think that if there were shadows you *couldn't* hide in, they'd mention it. :)

O'course, do whatever works for you, but I think "you can't hid in a shadow that can't hold you" is a bit of a misinterpretation, myself. :p
 

Although the rules don't sepcify this, I think it should be considered an illusion (glamer) effect.

That doesn't fit with the DMG description. More importantly, it doesn't fit with the other abilities of the SD, like shadow jump or summoning a shade familiar.
 

mythago said:


That doesn't fit with the DMG description. More importantly, it doesn't fit with the other abilities of the SD, like shadow jump or summoning a shade familiar.

Then what is it? A transmutation effect? Why doesn't it make the SD incorporeal, two-dimensional, etc.?

Daniel
 

First off, check out this month's Sage Advice in Dragon magazine (it may actually even reference HiPS). The bottom line is that it is a Move Equivalent Action, not a Standard Action to use the Hide skill, this is also true for HiPS.

Second, Hide in Plain Sight isn't broken, including when you use it against an opponent (while hasted of course) attack -hide- attack and throw on your Expert Tactician free attack as well! Hello sneak attack! Broken? I said no. Fighter can stand there "doing nothing special" and match or exceed this damage routine without blinking an eye, and take a few hits in return. If some of your typical "big CR" creatures land a punch on that rogue, he's meat. In addition, there are SCADS of counter-measures: Truesight, Scent, Tremorsense, and Dragonsense as well as ALL THE CREATURES IMMUNE TO CRITICALS. Limiting this ability in any way will significantly penalize a rogue who had to make sacrifices elsewhere to earn this ability. Rogues who don't seek HiPS should be working their way towards scroll/magic item use, and abusing Improved Invis or Blink. If they don't they'll be falling behind their peers.

Finally, IMHO what is broken, is the level this ability becomes available in the prestige class. It should be third level at least. I have posted before about how poorly planned many of the prestige classes are, and not mindful of the "multi-prestige-classing" of our favorite PC munchkins.

PS - If you don't see my points as true, b/c PC's in your campaigns would NEVER consider using such tactics, please don't bother to respond. I respect that you play the game differently. That's great, your're not right, I'm not wrong (and vice versa), it's just a different style of play. I THINK the poster is asking more from the "traditional" power gamer type play. The fact he has a PC who even identified Shadowdancer as a class to take is a good sign of that. If that's not true, please disregard.
 

Again, I agree that this class is front-loaded. Our rogue6/fighter1/shadowdancer1 used Spring Attack to sneak attack, then fade back into the shadows in our last game. Quite nasty. Until I saw the reference to the Sage Advice column in Dragon 301 referred to by ashockney, I thought we were playing it wrong in our last session. Indeed, it says:

"Although supernatural abilities usually require a standard action to use, a few of them do not. Hide in plain sight, for example, works just like any other use of the Hide skill, so you use it as a move action or as part of a move action.
A monks's supernatural speed works any time the monk moves. In general,whenever a supernatural ability changes the way one of the user's actions works, it works just like the action it modifies. "

It's not a big deal though. He's not dealing out obscene amounts of damage. Enemies can still hit him by readying an action, and usually do after one sneak attack. He's having fun with it, and isn't overshadowing the rest of the party (pun intended). The only thing that bothers me about it is that there is little incentive to take more levels as a shadowdancer, which is kind of a neat concept, if poorly executed. He'll use the cape of the mountebank to dimension door with no restrictions about shadows and take rogue levels to increase his sneak attack. Yeah, he's a powergaming min/maxer. :) But that's ok, he's fun.
 

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