Shadowrun D20 Conversion
- Thread starter Eristophenes
- Start date
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
evildmguy said:
I'm not sure why it would matter to you one way or the other. If you already have the game, your books won't be somehow rendered unusable after a conversion. Beyond that, why would it concern anyone what someone else wants converted? What I'm sick of, as you're sick of calls for conversions, is people protesting conversions. Are people supposed to play the protester's way or no way at all? What can it possibly hurt? If a game company decides to go the d20 route, it must mean they aren't making enough money with the original system. If the original system is so inviolable, I would imagine that the number of fans would be great enough to render such a conversion unnecessary. Even if, say, Shadowrun went d20, there would still be umpteen supplements for the original system still available; I see them all the time at Half Price Books, for example.
evildmguy
Explorer
Conversions aren't evil
CH: Good to see you! It has been a while!
I just think that d20 is inflated, over inflated in fact, in its own importance. I personally don't think that d20 is the best game mechanic system out there, nor the best game system. It might be the simplest, and therefore most appealing to new players, but it isn't the best. It is therefore disappointing to me when it is flooding the market and other gaming companies can't get support for their good games with out doing a d20 conversion.
The Buffy RPG is very good example of this. It is a very good system but I don't know how you can convert it and get the "feel" of the Buffy show with d20. This, of course, assumes that you think that game systems have different feels.
I like the mechanics of Buffy RPG a lot (I mention it as it is a current game and so supported, as compared to Alternity, which is no longer supported.) but I see that Eden Studios also has d20 stuff. Probably so they CAN do other games like their Unisystem games. Wouldn't that be like being a UNIX or Mac shop but doing Windows applications to pay the bills?
By the same token, I just don't think that d20, and the d20 system, can do everything. Different systems really help with the feel of a world. Game mechanics also influence role playing. And since not everyone wants a heroic system, d20 won't do it.
I agree when you say that it doesn't limit my ability to play nor does it ruin the books I already have. I just don't think d20 is the best system out there for game mechanics and find it too bad when companies have to have a d20 division to do the other products they want to do.
No, not all of them. No this isn't universal. Yes, this is all just my opinion. No, I am not down on d20 in general, only in that I don't think it does non heroic systems well (skill based vs class based). Yes, I will still be playing DND and enjoy it. I am a nit picker. That means that I enjoy something and will keep using it but I then also notice, and will point out, its flaws. Yes, d20 Modern does address some issues of heroism with its lowered MDT but it doesn't address a person fighting until 0 hit points at full ability, etc. Again, I am not down on these systems. I like and will continue to play DND. I would love an opportunity to play d20 Modern as I really like what I read of GeneTech (updated Dark*Matter?) in Dungeon. I am just nit picking.
[[trying to get most objections covered in that last paragraph but I am sure I missed a couple.
]]
edg
CH: Good to see you! It has been a while!
I just think that d20 is inflated, over inflated in fact, in its own importance. I personally don't think that d20 is the best game mechanic system out there, nor the best game system. It might be the simplest, and therefore most appealing to new players, but it isn't the best. It is therefore disappointing to me when it is flooding the market and other gaming companies can't get support for their good games with out doing a d20 conversion.
The Buffy RPG is very good example of this. It is a very good system but I don't know how you can convert it and get the "feel" of the Buffy show with d20. This, of course, assumes that you think that game systems have different feels.
I like the mechanics of Buffy RPG a lot (I mention it as it is a current game and so supported, as compared to Alternity, which is no longer supported.) but I see that Eden Studios also has d20 stuff. Probably so they CAN do other games like their Unisystem games. Wouldn't that be like being a UNIX or Mac shop but doing Windows applications to pay the bills?
By the same token, I just don't think that d20, and the d20 system, can do everything. Different systems really help with the feel of a world. Game mechanics also influence role playing. And since not everyone wants a heroic system, d20 won't do it.
I agree when you say that it doesn't limit my ability to play nor does it ruin the books I already have. I just don't think d20 is the best system out there for game mechanics and find it too bad when companies have to have a d20 division to do the other products they want to do.
No, not all of them. No this isn't universal. Yes, this is all just my opinion. No, I am not down on d20 in general, only in that I don't think it does non heroic systems well (skill based vs class based). Yes, I will still be playing DND and enjoy it. I am a nit picker. That means that I enjoy something and will keep using it but I then also notice, and will point out, its flaws. Yes, d20 Modern does address some issues of heroism with its lowered MDT but it doesn't address a person fighting until 0 hit points at full ability, etc. Again, I am not down on these systems. I like and will continue to play DND. I would love an opportunity to play d20 Modern as I really like what I read of GeneTech (updated Dark*Matter?) in Dungeon. I am just nit picking.
[[trying to get most objections covered in that last paragraph but I am sure I missed a couple.
]]edg
Corinth
First Post
It's not about being the best damned game engine ever. It's about the size of the user network, and d20 has the largest user network. RPGs are strongly tied to their user network in order to get their fullest potential realized, so it is follow to not tap into the largest user network around by not converting to d20.
evildmguy
Explorer
Corinth: I understand what you are saying. I get that the business decision is to go with what sells to the largest audience.
My problem is that this is what causes so much crap.
Case in point:
TV, Movies - There is so much crap out there in TV and movies. Insiders (Entertainment Weekly, E online, etc.) all say that to pitch a tv show or movie to executives, most EPs have to say, "well, it's like this successful show or movie." So, instead of an original show, we get ten clones of something. (X-Files, Survivor, etc.) Then, executives think they were right because people watch it but it is the same reason that eskimos eat blubber. It's the only thing on the buffet! (Thanks Dennis Miller.)
Meanwhile, good, innovative shows on TV, even those hailed by critics and fans alike, still can't get viewers and so are cancelled or always wondering if they will be around another season.
Actually, I am sure I could carry this analogy to many areas, including computers, cars, books, comics, etc. I just thought of that one first.
So, this is a rant. I don't want to end that way. I want to praise those companies that are still innovating and creating their own game systems. Especially those companies that are doing systems based on movies or TVs. I think what they do for those systems helps keep the feel of that system and I think that is much better in staying true to the source material rather than just using a system that has broadest name recognition. I applaud those companies for their innovations for it is those companies, imo, that will keep the industry alive and vital.
That's just me. Even well before the d20 system, say late 80s, I liked reading other systems and seeing the differences. Again, though, I firmly believe that the game mechanics will determine role playing. I like reading different systems to see how things will be different and what new things they managed to do while maintaining the balance between playability and realism. Those things happen to be important to me, so that's what I look for.
Again, this is very difficult to completely explain all of my views on a message board. I am not trying to flame or troll. I am just glad to see that not every company will use d20 mechanics because, as I said, I don't think they are the best for EVERY game or genre.
YMMV
edg
My problem is that this is what causes so much crap.
Case in point:
TV, Movies - There is so much crap out there in TV and movies. Insiders (Entertainment Weekly, E online, etc.) all say that to pitch a tv show or movie to executives, most EPs have to say, "well, it's like this successful show or movie." So, instead of an original show, we get ten clones of something. (X-Files, Survivor, etc.) Then, executives think they were right because people watch it but it is the same reason that eskimos eat blubber. It's the only thing on the buffet! (Thanks Dennis Miller.)
Meanwhile, good, innovative shows on TV, even those hailed by critics and fans alike, still can't get viewers and so are cancelled or always wondering if they will be around another season.
Actually, I am sure I could carry this analogy to many areas, including computers, cars, books, comics, etc. I just thought of that one first.
So, this is a rant. I don't want to end that way. I want to praise those companies that are still innovating and creating their own game systems. Especially those companies that are doing systems based on movies or TVs. I think what they do for those systems helps keep the feel of that system and I think that is much better in staying true to the source material rather than just using a system that has broadest name recognition. I applaud those companies for their innovations for it is those companies, imo, that will keep the industry alive and vital.
That's just me. Even well before the d20 system, say late 80s, I liked reading other systems and seeing the differences. Again, though, I firmly believe that the game mechanics will determine role playing. I like reading different systems to see how things will be different and what new things they managed to do while maintaining the balance between playability and realism. Those things happen to be important to me, so that's what I look for.
Again, this is very difficult to completely explain all of my views on a message board. I am not trying to flame or troll. I am just glad to see that not every company will use d20 mechanics because, as I said, I don't think they are the best for EVERY game or genre.
YMMV
edg
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TeeSeeJay said:
Mutants and Masterminds is based on the d20 SRD, doesn't use HP (save Vs Damage, degree of failure determines penalties), no classes (though does have some sample archtypes they are not compulsory), points based character generation. It also does not have the d20 Logo as the game designers decided just to use the Open Gaming License when using the d20 SRD and not the d20 Trademark license.
The requirement to indicate that the PH is a necessary acessory to play is that under the d20 Trademark License you can not explain the process of gaining levels and generating and assigning abilities scores.
Just because something is in the d20 SRD does not mean that you have to use it. If someone wanted to they could design a game, with the d20 logo that did not use classes and did not have abilities linked to levels.
Maybe I am being dense with the final sentence, I agree with both statements d20 != DND and d20SRD = (DND-IP) but I don't see how the second is a caveat of the first, beacuse, in my mind, that means that you are saying Judge Dread, Spycraft and Mutants and Masterminds are all just (DND - WoTCIP) + OtherIP.
Finally for the records: I do not believe in the wholesale conversion of other game systems to d20. I do believe that attempting the conversion some aspects of a game system, say a magic system, may prove to be a nice mental exercise to the reader and provide more insight in to both games.
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Am I a fan of d20, sort of.
After 10 years of trying to get people to play something other than D&D, I gave up. Then 3e came along with modifications that I could live with. I started to run it, converting all the cool game worlds I want to play.
... Suddenly I had a waiting list of people wanting to play. And then I got Mutants and Masterminds, so now conversions are snap. In fact, I asked a couple of questions on the MnM fourm with the idea of borrowing Shadowrun's old "astral dimensional magic" set up. It worked out easier than I thought.
I am happy for now.
After 10 years of trying to get people to play something other than D&D, I gave up. Then 3e came along with modifications that I could live with. I started to run it, converting all the cool game worlds I want to play.
... Suddenly I had a waiting list of people wanting to play. And then I got Mutants and Masterminds, so now conversions are snap. In fact, I asked a couple of questions on the MnM fourm with the idea of borrowing Shadowrun's old "astral dimensional magic" set up. It worked out easier than I thought.
I am happy for now.
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Psyckosama
First Post
Re: re: shadowrun D20
Lemme guess? Click based Shadowrun?
Why not, they seem to ruin everything else they lay their hands on (like Battletech)...
Xandar said:
Lemme guess? Click based Shadowrun?
Why not, they seem to ruin everything else they lay their hands on (like Battletech)...
Michelle Lyons
Explorer
Re: Re: re: shadowrun D20
*blink*
Um, you have seen Classic Battletech, haven't you?
http://www.classicbattletech.com/
Far be it from me to kill a pet gripe, but just thought I'd point that out.
Psyckosama said:
Lemme guess? Click based Shadowrun?
Why not, they seem to ruin everything else they lay their hands on (like Battletech)...
*blink*
Um, you have seen Classic Battletech, haven't you?
http://www.classicbattletech.com/
Far be it from me to kill a pet gripe, but just thought I'd point that out.
Andrew D. Gable
First Post
Re: Re: re: shadowrun D20
Umm, the Shadowrun supplements produced since the WizKids buyout are, IMHO, some of the better supplements we've got out there. Didn't detract from the feel of the world at all.
I thought it was kinda funny though that the Satyr and Troll Gunner for Mage Knight resemble the Shadowrun variety so closely (the Satyr particularly, it's even the same positioning).
Psyckosama said:Lemme guess? Click based Shadowrun?
Why not, they seem to ruin everything else they lay their hands on (like Battletech)...
Umm, the Shadowrun supplements produced since the WizKids buyout are, IMHO, some of the better supplements we've got out there. Didn't detract from the feel of the world at all.
I thought it was kinda funny though that the Satyr and Troll Gunner for Mage Knight resemble the Shadowrun variety so closely (the Satyr particularly, it's even the same positioning).
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