Shadowrun: How can they properly use Native Americans?

[GreyLord]

At the time, I just thought it was completely unrealistic the Confederacy could have achieved victory. I could accept undead gunslingers, mad scientists with flame throwers, Baptist preachers performing miracles, and even Buffalo Soldiers using steam powered jetpacks, but I could not accept not being crushed by the Union. I had a similar problem with Shadowrun. Native Americans make up about 2% of the population. I don't care if they've got magic, I don't buy them beating the US government, or at the very least, having that victory last.

Ah, history. We imagine scenarios that could never be, but thinking on it can be fun.

First...I do NOT agree with the Cause of the Southern States during the US Civil War. I do NOT sympathize with their reasonings for rebellion, and I do not think they were the good guys (they were the bad guys).

That said...

If you take away Grant and Sherman, I could see the Northern States being drawn to a stalemate. This could have especially happened, even with Grant and Sherman if Lincoln had lost the election. If he had lost that election and his opponent had won, that president could have sued for peace almost immediately and had a truce drawn up. Without Grant to realize the North's superiority in...well, just about everything...and Sherman to execute down the line, the North could have very well had a much longer and drawn out war.

It also took Grants understanding of Logistics in order to utilize that superiority.

For what they had, the South had kept the North at bay for an incredibly long time (overly cautious Northern Generals amongst other things). I could see a scenario where the North didn't win (more of a stalemate) the US Civil War as quickly as it did, especially if we take Grant and Sherman out of the picture, and then make it even less likely the North wins if later Lincoln loses the election.

 

[MGibster]

Ah, history. We imagine scenarios that could never be, but thinking on it can be fun.

The problem with alt-history is, "If things were different, things would be different." Which is correct, I guess. At least when your throw magic or aliens into the mix you've got a little more leeway to do what you want.

 

[Oryzarius]

One of the biggest problems is just how do you portray Native Americans in Shadowrun? On one had, in real life, Native Americans are a fairly diverse group. Native American is about as useful a designation as European. A Frenchman is not an Englishman, who is not a Dane, who in turn is not a Spaniard. i.e. They all come from distinct cultures with their own language and customs. How do you distill all Native Americans into some form that's acceptable at the game table? Coyote and Crow did this by suggesting Non-Native players play members of fictional tribes. But if you have a setting like Shadowrun, what Native American groups are in charge? Is it the Lakota? Diné? Cherokee would seem to be an obvious choice because they're quite numerous. But someone's going to be unhappy.

The Shadowrun lore already includes a variety of new North American ethno-states: Athabaskan, Algonquin, Tsimshian, Salish, Sioux, Ute, and Pueblo (and that's not counting the situation farther southwards).

The challenge, as others have said, would be honestly, forthrightly, and respectfully portraying those as independent and different cultures... while still allowing enough darkness and grit to provide adventure potential for shadowrunners. Seven different countries makes for an expensive set of cultural consultants and writers.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Quite honestly, I'm never going to play a Shadowrun game so long as the rules are Godawful. I don't care how much I love the setting, the rules are too painful.

Really? SR has always been one of my favorites. Dice pools make for bell curves and counting d6s is easy for new players.

 

[MGibster]

Really? SR has always been one of my favorites. Dice pools make for bell curves and counting d6s is easy for new players.

This can't be the first time you've seen someone complain about the terrible, terrible rules of Shadowrun. I'm flabbergasted that you're flabbergasted. I'm a live and let live kind of guy, so if you like the rules, well, I don't understand why, but it's cool. I'm glad you enjoy it, but playing the game seems like a chore. But because I'm a good sport, I've got something nice to say.

I really like how character generation works were you prioritize your lifestyle, gear, attributes, and race.

 

[Umbran]

With the culture-police sensitive gamers that patrol this hobby...

Mod Note:
Said like a person who had momentarily forgotten that this site has an inclusivity policy that specifically forbids using pejoratives or dog whistles to dismiss opinions you disagree with.

You're done in this discussion.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Oh, SR1 was a mess of beautiful potential. SR2 threw out most of the convoluted stuff and SR3 was way easier to teach newbs than d&d in the era of ThAC0.

Even after 3e, SR had a more compact set of magic spells, fleshed out by summoning, that made it easier to pick up. Over 30+ years of gaming. I saw many people who refused to be a d&d caster play SR shamans or wizards.

My problem with SR at a campaign level is it wasn't deep enough. A dozen or so "adventures" and your characters were often breaking the power curve.

 

[Eyes of Nine]

The Shadowrun lore already includes a variety of new North American ethno-states: Athabaskan, Algonquin, Tsimshian, Salish, Sioux, Ute, and Pueblo (and that's not counting the situation farther southwards).

The challenge, as others have said, would be honestly, forthrightly, and respectfully portraying those as independent and different cultures... while still allowing enough darkness and grit to provide adventure potential for shadowrunners. Seven different countries makes for an expensive set of cultural consultants and writers.

I mean, even getting one would be a good start, right?

 

[kigmatzomat]

Back to the topic, SR was both divergent history and fictional future. SR's SAIM (sovereign American Indian Movement) was loosely based in the real world American Indian Movement (AIM), which was tarred as terrorists by the FBI in the 70s, not to mention betrayed by the Nixon administration.

IMO the fiction treats the indigenous people well from a moral standpoint while simultaneously nearly eradicating them with various plagues, attempted genocide and a spell that killed the majority of their most spiritually knowledgeable members. The tribes were horrifically small in number after the Ghost Dances, but the governments gave up because they were so terrified the shaman would do more Ghost Dances.

The Crashes wiped out digital records, the internment round ups destroyed physical artifacts. The cadre of real indigenous peoples were so few in numbers that the fiction's lax policies to accept "pink skins" into the tribes was necessary just to get enough plumbers/electricians/etc to establish a functioning society.

So....are these cultures anything more the "wiccans" of an alt future? "Inspired by" the historic people but with so little surviving lore to really be a continuation?

Do they just need to contextualize that at the very beginning?

"The tribal people of 2070 are not a direct continuation of the indigenous cultures. The BIA destroyed their libraries, museums and collected artifacts. What exists now is a pastiche assembled from the memories of the few that survived VITAS, VITAS2, the internment camps and the Ghost Dance. Even those traditions that were clearly recalled have been heavily modified to reflect the needs of those who can summon spirits and perform magic."

 

[sevenbastard]

My problem with SR at a campaign level is it wasn't deep enough. A dozen or so "adventures" and your characters were often breaking the power curve.

I haven't played in decades so my terms might be wrong, but after a shaman gets a few karma on the first adventure they can start making permanent fetish to lock in increase reflect spell and increase willpower spell. They are faster in combat that the street samurai and have crazy powerful magic.

I'm not sure anyone at FASA ever playtested the game.