Shadowrun: How can they properly use Native Americans?

[Anon Adderlan]

Fact is cool representations are almost always more compelling than accurate ones, even to the groups being represented. And while tribes like the Comanche (which was a name given to them by their enemies) weren't exactly politically correct, man they were badass, and I suspect would like to continue to be treated as such.

 

[Umbran]

I don't think that needs to be dismissed as "lack of vision". He may simply dislike fantasy as a genre.

Disliking and entire genre to the point of such dismissal is kind of textbook lack of vision.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Disliking and entire genre to the point of such dismissal is kind of textbook lack of vision.

"textbook"?

I mean, I hate mint. Just hate it. Makes me want to vomit.

But I love coffee.

If I say, "God the idea of mint in my coffee sounds terrible..." is that textbook lack of vision.

 

[Cergorach]

Have been a fan of SR since 1e and have most of the 1e/2e/3e books on my bookshelves. The more recent editions I have in pdfs via Humble Bundles and Bundles of Holding. I don't like many of the newer 'fluf' directions they went with, where the internet now is more like another form of magic, etc. I didn't notice the lack of NAN content in the more recent editions because I didn't go very deep into the fluff after already been very disappointed by the global directions of the SR fluff.

People need to realize that back in 1989 there was very little Internet, this game was designed for the American market by Americans (FASA), with all the particularities that entails. Their initial focus was Seattle, anything beyond that was window dressing and only later they expanded to other American 'nations', they did two whole books on the NAN (Native American Nations). Meanwhile, SR became popular in other countries in the world, like Germany. They did their own translations in German and even did their own setting books (like the Berlin book). These days SR is played across the world, in many different countries, and while the main setting is still Seattle, I can understand why they would be more setting agnostic then with the first couple of editions.

As a European, I always thought of the native Americans in SR as heroes that took back their native lands and kept some of the Americans in reservations like Seattle. I thought of the Goblinization as social commentary on when skin colour suddenly became irrelevant and where rich white men turned into Trolls and Orcs, which created a new kind of fantasy racism that was of course social commentary on racism based on skin colour in the rest of the world.

What exactly did FASA do wrong with the representation of native Americans and the NAN in 1e? It's been a long while since I actually looked into those books and all they've left are impressions (which aren't bad). Nor am I a native American scholar. Add to that that I'm European (Dutch), which translates to that many of the American social stuff is very alien to us/me.

 

[Umbran]

"textbook"?

Pretty much, yeah.

I mean, I hate mint. Just hate it. Makes me want to vomit.

But I love coffee.

If I say, "God the idea of mint in my coffee sounds terrible..." is that textbook lack of vision.

I often use food analogies for gaming, but the one you present here is really weak.

The analogous thing in cooking would be:
1) You are a chef with Michelin star rated restaurants, and
2) instead of single flavors, you'd be discarding an entire cuisine and its ingredients.

If you say you don't like mint in your coffee, that's just some guy on the internet with a personal preference. If Gordon Ramsay said, "No Japanese food in my restaurants", that'd be lack of vision on his part.

 

[Bill Zebub]

The analogous thing in cooking would be:
1) You are a chef with Michelin star rated restaurants, and
2) instead of single flavors, you'd be discarding an entire cuisine and its ingredients.

If you say you don't like mint in your coffee, that's just some guy on the internet with a personal preference. If Gordon Ramsay said, "No Japanese food in my restaurants", that'd be lack of vision on his part.

If Gordon Ramsay said that I would give him the benefit of the doubt and assume there is a reason why he thinks that particular cuisine would be a bad fit. But maybe (from Gibson's point of view) it would be more like Gordon Ramsay saying, "No Taco Bell in my restaurants"?

Anyway, I guess if you want to define "vision" as being open to any random mixing and matching of existing genres/cuisines/etc., then, yeah, tautologically that's true.

I personally think of Gibson's clearly demonstrated vision as being more refined than "hey let's mix ideas from Tolkien and Gibson!"

 

[Bill Zebub]

Update: maybe if we define "lack of vision" to simply mean "unable, in a particular case, to see that something new would be popular with at least some people" then, yes, Gibson would have lack of vision in this instance. Because clearly some people think it's great.

But if that's true then everybody suffers from 'lack of vision' sometimes. In which case I don't find it a very useful term.

I just remembered a cartoon from the 90s, which I failed to find after three Google attempts. A guy is standing on a street practically lined with felafel carts, saying, "And I want to open a felafel cart right here." A girl is clinging to his arm, saying, "Oh, Harold! You have such vision!"

 

[Umbran]

Update: maybe if we define "lack of vision" to simply mean "unable, in a particular case, to see that something new would be popular with at least some people" then, yes, Gibson would have lack of vision in this instance. Because clearly some people think it's great.

It isn't just about popularity, though. The issue at hand is, honestly, an argument over purity - that somehow his type of fiction should be kept pure, when broadly we have learned that fiction gains a lot of opportunities from cross-genre sharing.

And again, not just in popularity, but in the depth and breadth of stories that can be told, and questions asked.

And also, it isn't like cyberpunk is somehow not born of sharing among prior genres. Cross genre sharing was okay to help him build his work, but then it should freeze?

 

[Bill Zebub]

Thinking about Gibson did remind me of this Q&A with Neal Stephenson on Slashdot in 2004. Question #4. Pure genius.

Neal Stephenson Responds With Wit and Humor - Slashdot

There is nothing better than a Slashdot interview with someone who not only reads and understands Slashdot but can out-troll the trolls. Admittedly, the questions you asked Neal Stephenson were great in their own right, but his answers... Wow! let's just say that this guy shows how it's done....

slashdot.org

 

[Ruin Explorer]

If the producers of Shadowrun want to bring some of that flavor back they'll probably need to hire some sort of cultural consultant to go over things.

Seems like this would be key.

I played it back when it first came out and loved it. These days, way more into Cyberpunk Red or Cy_Borg. I tried going back and found the mechanics way too cumbersome.

2E and 3E have "okay-ish" rules. But the more recent versions are just an absolute chore to run.