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Shadowrun is in all ways superior to D20 Modern

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TeeSeeJay said:
Look now, let's not start going around giving Shadowrun fans a bad name.
Not to worry, people like that only give themselves a bad name.


Anyone who thinks firearms are as simple as point-and-shoot is pretty naive.

Ayup


-- the guy sprayed about a dozen shots all over the place before hitting his target, since he was trying to protect himself and didn't have time to aim properly.

You only get to aim if you're a sniper or at the shooting range. Actual gunplay makes hitting your target VERY tricky.

Bingo. Once the adrenaline kicks in your fine motor control begins to go down the tubes. Unless you really try to control it, you're better off using the gun as a club than as a firearm.
 

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"Hitting people with a shoot from a firearm is very easy"

Then explain the FBI statistics on firearms shots fired vs hits. A vast majority of shots fired miss.
 

I always thought proficiency represented specialization with a weapon. Afterall, how easy is it to swing a sword? But do you think you could do so with the same chance as hitting as someone who actually spent time to study and learn how to use it propperly? As far as hitpoints go, a lot of the lower damage shots are probably just hits in the arm or grazes. You could always die eventually from being shot in the arm, but not outright I'd think.

By the way, welcome to the boards- Try to avoid jokes about regeneration next time. ;)
 

Shadowrun Man, you aren't supposed to be here. This is a d20 Modern forum, and d20 Modern doesn't have Trolls, that's D&D!

Anyway, if it was easy to hit someone with a gun, our good friend James Bond would be so dead. OK, Bond flicks aren't the most real, but let me tell you something: If I want realism, I don't play. I want heroics.
 

I hope noone minds if I take this troll on, with an actual response :D

Now, I don't like d20 modern AT ALL. It seems simplistic with not nearly enough options, but thats probably because I like weird concepts and it IS only the first book. I am a huge fan of SR 3e. SR certainly has many more options than d20 Modern, but its a much older system with more support. The advantage d20 Modern has over SR is a simple one, it's d20. A good starting SR character can take several hours to a day to build, for an experienced SR who knows where to find all the rules. Heaven forbid you wanna play a street sam, you'll be at it a week.

A d20 modern character can be made in 30 min, more likely 15 for someone familiar with D&D. D20 Modern is also much more approachable for newbies. Not so with SR. Ever have a player new to RPG's come up and say a Decker looks like fun? They need a real-life IT degree just to understand everything in the Decker splatbook. Try running an archetypical SR group, Sammy, Decker, Mage, Rigger. Thats THREE seperate combats you're running; mundane, cyberspace, astral, and of course toss in a dozen drones as well. Not very n00b friendly by any stretch.

The upside is SR 3e can model any character I wanna play. D20 modern is seriouslly lacking in this department. Even with expansions the level-based, vancian magic, etc will alway hobble d20 in some way or another.
 

Welcome, Shadowrun Man. I hope you stick around for more than just "dissing" d20 Modern! We have excellent Dungeons and Dragons Forums, and hoepfully you might find something else you like.

That said, this forum is for discussing d20 Modern. You are entitled to your opinion, and I'm glad you have given it, without insult or putdowns.

Now, my response:

Shadowrun vs. d20 Modern isn't to me a question of superior systems - it's a question of superior mechanics, and modelling the kind of action you wish to model.

First, for me personally, Shadowrun is a fun system, but FAR too messy to play. I have always been turned off by "dice pool" systems, especially the more dice they have me roll and count successes. The usual result is that combats involving more than 4 or 5 combatants on a side are too difficult to run, taking several hours to finish, whereas a d20 System combat can be finished quickly, and the plot can continue. It gives fans of combat action what they want, and gives fans of the story more of what they want.

Second, firearms are not that easy, as anyone who has ever been in a firefight will tell you. (I haven't, but I am friends with about four ex-military and ex-law enforcement who have.) On a target range, there are no distractions, no bullets whizzing toward you, and being calm (though not exposed) in a firefight is one of the NUMBER ONE things that a good combatant can learn to stay alive. Almost any weapon, not just firearms, are a matter of "point and shoot;" however, being in a combat makes this difficult.

Third, according to shadowrun rules, it is a DARNED HARD THING to hit someone in a firefight, not an easy thing as your post suggests. The target number is a "4" on a d6, and goes up for things like cover, darkness, target in motion, etc. and goes down for people with smartlinks, laser sights, other cyber-modifications, etc. So unless you are a street samurai, the only thing that will help you make that shot is your combat dice pool, which gets spent pretty quickly in a fight with mroe than one round. Six of one, half dozen of another.

Fourth, d20 Modern is meant to model action movies, not the Six O'clock news. From page 5 of the rulebook:

Combine the elements of the modern world with the imagination-powered engine of the d20 System... and you can leave behind mundane reality and embrace action and adventure of modern fantasy.
Modern Fantasy?...any story set in the modern world the feature heroic characters in dramatic situations accomplishing larger than life feats falls under the category of fantasy.
...It's the fantasy of action-adventure movies -- slow-motion gunfights, bone-rattling explosions, jaw-dropping martial arts battles, heart-stopping car chases, more explosions, and over-the-top plots hatched by the most terrible villains.

A system like original Call of Cthulhu is better for modelling realism, or even the d20 Call of Cthulhu does a pretty good job of this. Shadowrun is not about realism either - but it needs to be able to model its universe played in, which it does pretty well. But the system can be a turn-off for many players.

So, in a nutshell, welcome to the boards, glad you're here, but Shadowrun is not the end-all and be-all of modern game systems.

Good gaming!
 

I remember Shadowrun!

Wired 3 Reflexes! Max out that initiative and take a bajillion actions before anyone else! Yeah, we thought it was cool too back in, like, 1992.

I can still recall my fondness of the Physical Adepts in specific and the magic system in general. But that stone has already been squeezed dry. So goes the cycle, time to move on.

And so too shall d20. Just Not Yet.

*nostalgic sigh* Yup, thems were the days.
 

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No bazillion actions before others on 3E Shadowrun. If you win initiative, you get one action before others. You take your remaining actions AFTER others have made theirs. Still, fast street sam can definitely take quite a many shots in a round... :)

Z.
 

Re: Re: Shadowrun is in all ways superior to D20 Modern

Henry said:
I have always been turned off by "dice pool" systems, especially the more dice they have me roll and count successes. The usual result is that combats involving more than 4 or 5 combatants on a side are too difficult to run, taking several hours to finish, whereas a d20 System combat can be finished quickly, and the plot can continue.

Damn right. I have a Vampire game running (it's d10 all the way), and we had a fight who lastet two rounds - something like 10 seconds - in-game, but an hour or more out of game. It also featured almost 20 dice for the attack rolls for several people. OK, part of the time was our Storyteller - who made that fight to show us what we can do with the fighting system - asking us how the rules are all the time. We play for about two months, and know the rules as long as that (or even less, but we're starting to get the hang of it).

In d20 it's much faster than that, and I like that. Also I prefer d20 over gurps/Vampire because in Vampire you can start as an incredibly good marksman, but then you will have to wait half an eternity before you can improve your skills, while in d20 you can start as a good marksman and get better chances to hit all the time, plus get more used to special actions like autofire, burst, and the like, which in Vampire more or less everyone can do from the start. Feats are, IMO, the best invention since the introduction of dice with more or less sides than 6. :D
 

Hmm if this isn't a great example of a Troll I don't know what is.

1) Member has only ever made one post.
2) Statement of "facts" which anyone how knows anything about the subject know to be incorrect.
3) Inflamatory in content.

I mean you can make a case that D20 Moderns firearms system is not remotely realistic (for its autofire rules for example) but chance to hit and random damage are not one of its problems.
 

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