Shane Hensley comments on the RPG industry

[Wulf Ratbane]

Ok, I recognize that a _LOT_ of people feel that feats are a core part of d20. I disagree.

I really don't mean this to sound as snarky as it is going to, but you aren't permitted to disagree. The d20 consumer doesn't grant you, the designer, that privelege. This is why you keep hearing the same complaints.

Yes, I should have added it to the book and I'm kicking myself that I didn't since feats seems to be one of the key things that people focus on when contesting that SAS d20 is not a d20 game...

You are missing the point of the d20 logo. You never got past the point of thinking, "The d20 logo will help sell my game." There's nothing wrong with that; the problem is that you fail to deliver 100% on the promise that is implicitly made by the d20 logo-- to whit:

This game is compatible with d20.

The logo does not mean, "This game is compatible with d20, with a few minor tweaks by the GM."

As for skills, we have them. Fine, the list is different, but how hard is it to say "we're using the D&D list of skills plus the SAS d20 combat skill." Also, the mechanics for the skills are identical to traditional d20 with a couple of additions (specializations and combat skills).

Ever step you take away from the d20 experience as delivered by D&D is a broken promise to the end user.

Six basic ability scores? Got them. Classes? Have them too. Feats? See above. Skills? Have them (see above caveat). d20 task resolution? Have that too. Levelling up? Have that as well.

Thus, considering SAS d20 has all the elements (except feats, though adding them is effortless), why do you contest that SAS d20 isn't a d20 game?

Because you don't have ALL the basic elements in place. You must have them all. There must be a 1-to-1 analog, and you don't have it.

I can use Monster Manual creatures in an SAS d20 game with less than two minutes of conversions

See above. The d20 logo is your company's promise to the GM that even as little as 2 minutes of conversion should not be necessary.

I've heard that SAS d20 is not a d20 game often enough but I simply fail to see how it isn't.

I mean this with all respect, but if you still cannot grasp why it isn't, that's a fundamental flaw, and it is going to introduce flaws into every "d20 compatible" product you design.

Rather than riding the wave of d20, you seem to find yourself struggling to swim against the tide.

Since a lot of people seem unwilling to separate D&D from d20 and vice versa, it is hard for publishers to innovate with the system through presenting new options since it will be viewed as "not d20."

Not true; it is not that people are not willing to separate D&D with d20. The problem is that D&D is the defining game for what d20 is. Folks do not expect you to deliver D&D in Tights, but they do expect you to remain consistent with the character creation, character advancement, and basic task resolution defined in the PHB.

If you find that the d20 logo stifles your ability to innovate, the solution is simple: DON'T USE IT.

You still have access to the OGL, you can innovate and tweak to your heart's desire, and you will not suffer the backlash of the broken d20 promise. You can't have it both ways; if you want to use the d20 logo, you must deliver d20. If you are not delivering d20, please don't be disingenuous and slap the d20 logo on your product.

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.


Wulf

 

[Michael Tree]

Just as an aside, Nobilis couldn't work as a D20 game any more than Amber could... both are diceless systems

The first rule of conversions is "Convert the setting and the characters, not the rules."

I notice that your posts about converting Shadowrun are full of details about how specific aspects of the Shadowrun game mechanics would be difficult to implement in D20. Many of these mechanics have nothing to do with the setting.

The second rule of conversions is "D20 does not mean D&D". Lots of alternatives are possible. IMO the Star Wars RPG's Wound/Vitality rules and armor rules would best reflect shadowrun.

Nor do classes have to be restrictive. D20 modern's open-ended classes could work very well, if rules for magic and cyberwear were added. D20 doesn't even need to have classes.

If a book is made OGL instead of D20, such as Godlike and Mutants and Masterminds, you don't even need levels. Everything could be point based.

 

[kenjib]

Re: Re: Continuing This Topic Drift

But if you didn't do all of that, you wouldn't have Shadowrun. You would have a generic cyberpunk game with a different rule system. Shadowrun is as popular as it is mostly BECAUSE if it's rule system.

Actually, as far as I can tell you could just release Shadowrun, as-is, under the OGL license. The exact same game. The only difference from the current system would be that now other publishers could create supplements for Shadowrun according to your definition of open content.

Is this incorrect?

So, if Shane predicts that more people will be going toward OGL and away from d20, such a change has very different implications than anyone so far has mentioned on this thread. In fact, it seems quite contradictory with the opinion that d20 is taking over like Microsoft.

What would the industry look like if GURPS, Storyteller, and HERO were all released under the OGL, without any changes to the rules? Let's assume that each one created their own parallel the d20 license to protect the sales of their core books.

I think that would be a positive move forward. We could have Chaosium writing a GURPS supplement, and Green Ronin writing something for HERO. However, the GURPS, and HERO games will still have the exact same rules that they always did, we just get more options to choose from as regards supplements and campaign options.

It would give the consumers access to supplements written for the best systems, by the best publishers, and both the supplement publisher and the license holder profit (as nice supplement support drives sales of the core rules). It looks like it could be a win-win solution for everyone. The only possible hitch is in whether other systems without D&D's brand power can still drive sufficient core sales and cottage industry to remain profitable. I can't conjecture on this. Anyone? GURPS would be a perfect example with it's extensive in-house expansion line. Would GURPS benefit from competition in expansions or would it lose profit overall by licensing the core rule system out?

I think it would be great if other companies re-released under new licenses based on the OGL. The consumer, at least, would probably be a clear winner.

 

[2WS-Steve]

The first rule of conversions is "Convert the setting and the characters, not the rules."

I just wanted to back up Michael Tree here especially since I left this out of my earlier post. I've been running an Amber game using the d20 System for two years now. It works great and I even prefer it to my GURPS Amber, Diceless Amber, Home-Brew v.1 and v.2 Amber, Amber Hero, and Amber 7th Sea campaigns.

 

[Tsyr]

Is this incorrect?

No, that's more or less correct as I understand it.

As much as I'd like to see it, I don't think it would ever happen. Some companies are fairly protective of their property... by making it OGL, it is (sort of) a bit less "theirs", I think is how they would feel.

 

[Oberton]

...

However, I think you brought up an interesting scenario, one of which I would be interested in taking part in with a totally unbiased attitude; the sampling of several shops that carry role playing games. Back in college I used to do these types of surveys in the field of tobacco products, and if there were other interested people willing to conduct a survey in their respective areas, without bias or altering numbers, for the sake of comparing the sheer number of d20 products in comparison to non-d20 products. However, I would not participate if it would be used in any way to bash anyone or any company, and I would hope that nobody else would participate for any agenda other than producing facts. The survey would not reflect sales, but would reflect a sampling of shelfstock offerings and would have to be done on average of twice a week, for around 3 months to gather varied information reflecting trends and inventory.

hellbender

You can count me in on this survey. I can hit several locations in New Orleans, Baton Rouge and other towns in Louisiana... If someone really puts together a good survey contact me please warrenla@bellsouth.net or go to www.d20con.org


Oberton

Game-ON

 

[kenjib]

That's another trend that will continue, computers being commonplace, they are already putting them in our fridges and getting them to go online to order our groceries! (well, at least I still do that the "old fashioned way").

tangent alert!

Didn't that idea fade away after all of the online grocery stores that would have fulfilled these orders dot.tanked?

 

[Oberton]

For mine, I'd really like to see Campaign 'stories' as opposed to Campaign 'settings'.

God yes, we need much more material as GM's or DM's if you wish... I have more worlds now than ever... Harn d20, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, EverQuest--love the bard, Sword and Sorc., Auran, and so-on... I will continue to purchase the d20 products that do well on enworld and allow me to pick apart the product for my game. I will say this, I am now starting to allow my players to purchase products and use them in my D&D game which I run at a local hobby shop. I do tell them this: We can try out the new feat, class or whatever and if it does not hurt the game fine. But I might decide that it does not work in my world. This has had a cool impact. First, I have seen the players try new things with their characters and second, the store owner is now purchasing more crunchy bit books for the players...

Later and Game-ON

Oberton
www.d20con.org

 

[Rifter]

Another point of view

First off, this has been a terrific thread.

Next, I wanted to discuss the glut. There is one. I work for a local game store, and certain titles, come to the shelf, and go right off. Others, we have to work to sell... and yet others, never sell. The store owner has gotten a lot more gun-shy, when ordering new products in. Certain companies, the owner will always order their products. Other ones, he will pass, unless someone asks him directly for it.

So, to get by this, it helps to have knowlegable people at the store. I sell a LOT of D20 products, because I buy a bunch, and read them for the game I run, and the games I play in. If someone comes in looking for a product, I can ask them what they are looking for, and get them hooked up. Products don't sell for many reasons. Not what the person is looking for, not high enough quality, very narrow niche (Avalance products suffer from this, but man, they are great historical "idea" books), and, others are priced pretty high, for what you get (some of Fast Forward's hardbacks, and Bastion books come to mind).

To sell books, you need to get known. I talk about stuff from Enworld, and eventually that stuff gets orders where I work. But, a lot of stuff still goes by, and I have to get it ordered. I then show some friends, and a few more books get orderd. People need to know about these different books. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be a good channel for getting information to the stores. The store owner calls the distributor, and asks for what is new. He gets the list, and orders anything that sounds interesting. He never even LOOKS at the product. With D&D products it is a no-brainer, but for smaller 3rd party products, this gets difficult.

I have a suggestion for a lot of the companies that are making new games, using D20, such as Dragon Star or Spycraft. Please, make a few adventures, that get characters from lvl 1 to lvl 6 or 8. I like to GM, but I GM fantasy. I would LOVE to GM those 2 games in particular, but I don't really have the "feel" down. I learn the feel by playing in a game a GM runs, or running a module, that already fits. Also, put in some of the cool mechanics your game has, that makes it stand apart from others.

For the comments on Deadlands. I too picked up the main book, and the monster book, as soon as they came out. After being an avid fan of the original book, I was devistated by the transition to D20. It just doesn't always work well. Though, hearing that there will be optional mechanics to use cards, really piques my interest. Though, I still think that deadlands, like many other games, works better on its own system, than being pounded into shape on another system.

In summary, you really need to get your supplements known. Send flyers to the distributors, giving some information about your products. Get advocates in all the markets, even smaller ones. You will probalby have some better luck with advocates in smaller markets, since more people tend to know each other. Finally, do everything in your power to let people know about your products. Press releases to the news sites like EN world, banner ads help a lot. (I have purchased items I had never heard of, because of banner ads here... like Masters of Arms, Aerial Adventures and soon to be: elements of magic). Make it interesting. Banner ads are like billboards. They get the word out, that you exist. From there, the users can choose whether they want to check it out or not... but you need to give consumers the ability to know about your product. Also, watch your price. I have seen one copy of Book of the Righteous sold at our store. I bought it. It is one of the best books I have read. But, friends of mine look at the price, and gasp. The $100 adventure sounds GREAT, but I don't know many people that would fork over that much money.

 

[whisper_jeff]

I really don't mean this to sound as snarky as it is going to, but you aren't permitted to disagree. The d20 consumer doesn't grant you, the designer, that privelege. This is why you keep hearing the same complaints.

You are missing the point of the d20 logo. You never got past the point of thinking, "The d20 logo will help sell my game." There's nothing wrong with that; the problem is that you fail to deliver 100% on the promise that is implicitly made by the d20 logo-- to whit:

This game is compatible with d20.

The logo does not mean, "This game is compatible with d20, with a few minor tweaks by the GM."

Forgive the snark in this reply: That's horse. Many people view Spycraft (for example) as compatible with d20 yet, when the chips are down, there are conversions that need to be made in order to use it with D&D (which is often touted as the base-line of d20). Same with Star Wars. And several other games that are viewed as acceptably d20.

The idea that a game must be 100% compatible, without any conversion at all, in order to be d20 is laughable. There are numerous products already out there that have conversions required in order to use with other d20 material. Why don't they get racked over the coals? Because they are published by companies that were "on the d20 bandwagon" early whereas we waited before entering the market so we look like we're just trying to cash in. Isn't that what it really is all about. Other companies, because they've been doing d20 for a while, are allowed to make modifications and changes to the system because "they know d20." GOO, on the other hand has done no d20 products prior to SAS d20 so we clearly don't know our asses from our elbows and must surely be doing this _just_ to get our piece of the d20 pie, right?

Ignoring the sarcasm of the above, the point is still valid - why can other companies make similar changes to d20 but not suffer the same wrath?

Seriously, I am curious - why can other companies make changes to the system - change the skill list so that it is appropriate to the genre/setting, change armour to damage reduction, and other minor changes - changes similar to those we made? Why can they do it without the uproar and venom but when we do it we're apparently mercenaries just cashing in by "tricking" people with the d20 logo?

Considering I can drop a Spycraft character into SAS d20 with minimal conversions (the same number of conversions you'd have to make to drop the same Spycraft character into D&D...), why is Spycraft acceptably different from d20 while SAS isn't? Seriously?

Ignoring my possibly biased and clearly stated opinion on this subject, as a game designer, I am curious why people view changes to the d20 system as accetpable from some companies and blasphemy from others.