Shapechange Nerfed by my DM?

[Otterscrubber]

My DM has decided that shapechange will not allow me to turn into anything with epic DR. I dont think this is fair due to the fact that if have the HD to turn into something with Epic DR, like a solar at 22nd level, then that is ok because my character is an epic character and that will balance out. He thinks this is too powerful for a non epic spell and has limited it as I mentioned above. I'm curious as to what other people think.

 

[James McMurray]

In my campaign we removed the ability to gain (Su) powers from creatures, and you can't turn into anything that you aren't familiar with. The "familiar with" part comes directly from the spell, although it is left open for interpretation. We said you had to be able to take ten and make a knowledge check for the creature, beating the base DC by 20. Alternatively, you could spend ingame time studyingthe creature, with whatever that would entail (different ffor every creature).

Everyone is is considered familiar with standard creatures. Basically if its a naturally occuring animal in your part of the world (flies, horses, elephants for some) you'll be familiar with it. Anything else you'd better have some knowledge for or have taken the time to study it.

By no means is having fought something considered being familiar with it, unless you've fought various members of that race many times over.

 

[gfunk]

I don't see it as that much of a problem. You can shapechange into something with DR of a wepon type your opponents do not have such as silver, admantine, or cold iron. You can try a DR of the same alignment.

Either way, it's as good as epic if they can't penetrate it.

 

[Gizzard]

We said you had to be able to take ten and make a knowledge check for the creature, beating the base DC by 20.

Someone posted (I believe) a House Rule where you had to make a Knowledge check where the DC was 10 + Creature Level in order to be familiar with a particular creature. (Hmm, that sounds like a rule from the BoEF, but you know what I am trying to say.... ;-)

In practice I found this a bit too easy, so a rule like James suggests seems more on-target. In my experience the Druid would say "I want to be an Eagle" and if he missed the DC check he would say, "OK, then I want to be a Condor..." This only is limited by the creativity of the player as he tries to think of medium-sized flying creatures. I had to put an end to this by saying he could only try to be an animal from the MM, "Sorry, it seems there are no Condors in D&D..." which is quite arbitrary of me, but at least it keeps the game moving along.

Anyway, back to the original question I think the "familiarity" clause is the key. If you are familiar with that particular Celestial, then I can't imagine that becoming one is broken -- you should be of comparable power regardless of Epic DR etc. I personally prefer to play the familiarity rule rather harshly, so I would probably insist you have some significant dealings with a Solar before you could become one; perhaps even seeing his Epic DR in action before you could understand how to copy it. Now that would be an interesting twist. ;-)

 

[James McMurray]

"Excuse me, Mr/ Solar sir. I'm trying to become a beter spellcaster. Would you mind if I smack you in the face with this flaming two-handed sword +3? And then perhaps I could hit you in the groin with this +6 unholy ravager?

Pretty please?"

 

[jgsugden]

To answer your question: The DM is always right.

The real problem with Shapechange is the mechanic by which forms become available. HD is a Horrible mechanic by which to select available forms.

After all, what is tied to HD? BAB, Saves and hit points. All three of these aspects from the selected form are irrelevant to a PC that shapechanges.

Instead, we should look at the ECL of the new form. ECL measures how useful the form would be if it were used as a PC. COnsidering that this is exactly what we are doing when we Shapechange, it seems like a pretty good indicator of what is a balanced form.

There are three significant problems with this approach:

1.) ECL assumes the presence of spell-like abilities. A discount needs to be worked into the normal ECL when we consider it without spell-like abilities.

2.) Many creatures do not currently have ECLs or LA (level adjustments). They'd need to be generated.

3.) The current ECL system is severely flawed. Some abilities should never be in the hands of a party beneath a certain level, regardless of any othe drawbacks the form might possess. As a result, the ECL system should be redone to put minimum ECLs on the special abilities held by some forms.

If you used the system outlined above for Shapechange, a Solar would be unavailable to a 22nd level character. I think your DM is on the right track.

 

[Bauglir]

Good idea, but I'd suggest looking only at LA, rather than complete ECL, since as you pointed out, hit dice have nothing really to do with it..

 

[Hypersmurf]

Instead, we should look at the ECL of the new form. ECL measures how useful the form would be if it were used as a PC. COnsidering that this is exactly what we are doing when we Shapechange, it seems like a pretty good indicator of what is a balanced form.

You also have the problem that a human with 17 wizard levels who shapechanges into a fire giant, say, is now a fire giant with 17 wizard levels.

So his ECL is, pretty much, Fire Giant + 17.

If you limit him to changing into forms whose ECL is no greater than his caster level, then he's limited to forms with no LA, since the ECL of any form he takes will include his character level...

-Hyp.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Not to mention you would have to calculate the ECL of the creature without its spell-like abilities. In the case of the solar listed above that takes a lot of sting out of it. Also as far as I know you dont get equipment of the form so no +5 dancing greatswords or bows that fire any arrow of slaying desired. This would drastically complicate any type of ECL system for shapechanging. I see what you mean about HD not being a 100% accurate guideline (or as you put it "Horrible" in big red letters), but it is the best one considering the vast possibilities of abilities out there, some of which you get when shapechanged and others that you do not.

 

[Epametheus]

If you decide to use ECLs for creatures in order to adjucate it, then Shapechange would become one of the most useless spells in existence. Anything actually worth using a 9th level spell to turn into is going to have a massive ECL (for example, a juvenile dragon, which wouldn't even be good enough to use as a form in epic levels, would easily have an ECL of 25+).

I'm not a fan of the "the DM is always right" philosophy.

If you're an epic wizard with shapechange, you should easily be able to pull off a 50+ AC; epic DR is just another insult piled on top of that, and really won't matter -- if whatever the heck your fighting can hit a 50+ AC, then it can handle epic DR.

But Shapechange actually grants Su abilities now? I can see why your DM is freaking out over the spell, if that's the case. WotC is down, so I can't check the SRD.

My group's always handled familiarity as "if you've actually seen it in action, then you're familiar enough for the spell to work."